Bock in the swing of things ... two prospective lagers, looking for general feedback ... 2 yrs since last lager Options

[ewanzel]

I've been charting the temps in my garage here in Tacoma and I've got steady temps between 50-54 on the concrete floor. So I'm building up a four gallon starter batch of WLP 833 German Bock to do a few 10 gallon batches of lager on the same yeast cake. I've never been a great lager brewer and it's been about 2 years since my last attempt. I'm looking for any feedback on these recipes. As planned, both will have a protein rest at around 128 and a main rest at 151. Both will get a 90 minute boil with 1st hops added at T-60min. Both will get Irish moss and yeast nutrient at T-15min. Both will be chilled to 50 prior to pitch. Both will get a 2-3 week primary and extended lagering. It's my hope to save 1 of each for Spring/Summer sipping. Any feedback on this basic process would be appreciated. I'm tired of brewing average lagers.

The recipes: (I'm not locked into brewing to style, but I find it is a good framework if nothing else)

CODE

01A. American Lager, Light/Standard/Premium

OG    1.048
FG    1.012
IBU    16
ABV    4.6 %
SRM    4
Boil Volume     13 gallons
Batch Size     10.5 gallons
    
Fermentables
44.4 %     8#     German Pilsener     
22.2 %     4#     American Two-row Pale     
16.7 %     3#     Red Cargo Rice     
16.7 %     3#     Munich Light     
      
Hops
0.50oz     Whole Magnum - 14.2%AA (60 minute)
1.00oz     Whole Mount Hood - 4%AA (10 minute)

It is my hope that the red cargo rice will provide a slight nuttyness...saw it at the Korean Market and wanted to brew with it. The munich is there to add a little bit more malt flavor...I could live with it or without it. Any thoughts on grain bill and hop choice are welcome.

CODE

14B. Bock, Helles Bock/Maibock      
    
OG    1.066
FG    1.017
IBU    24
ABV    6.3 %
SRM    9    
Boil Volume     13 gallons
Batch Size     10.5 gallons

Fermentables
58.3 %     15#     German Pilsener     
38.8 %     10#     Munich Light     
2.9 %     .75#     German Dark Caramel     
      
Hops
1.00oz     Whole Magnum     14.2%AA (60 minute)    
1.00oz     Whole Hallertau  4.0%AA (5 minute)

IS this a good ratio of pils/munich? Is the Carmel malt out of place in a lager. I thought it might add a little more body, but is that even needed in this beer? Any thoughts on the hops? Hallertau is the only noble I have in the freezer at the moment.


Any and all feedback welcome and will be considered...TIA!!

[BrewerGeorge]

I haven't made a bock, so I can't comment.

For the Am Standard, though, there's no need for pilsner. You can use it, but it's actually a bit too malty for style. Regular American 2-row and rice is all that's necessary. Also skip the munich if you want to make a stylistic Am Standard. It would definitely be a better tasting, more interesting beer with the munich, but it won't be American Standard. They're not supposed to taste like much, remember.

[ewanzel]

For the Am Standard, though, there's no need for pilsner. You can use it, but it's actually a bit too malty for style. Regular American 2-row and rice is all that's necessary. Also skip the munich if you want to make a stylistic Am Standard. It would definitely be a better tasting, more interesting beer with the munich, but it won't be American Standard. They're not supposed to taste like much, remember.

Thanks for the feedback George...I had that thought about the pils, but as I mentioned I'm not hooked on style guidelines and put it in the mix to add a little additional maltiness. I tend to brew malt centered ales and that may be where I go wrong with my lager attempts. Do you think subbing the pils for 2-row and keeping the Munich would be a good compromise to style and malt flavor, or would keeping the pils and subbing the munich for 2-row be a better approach to get a nice crisp dry lager with a nice malt backbone?

This post has been edited by ewanzel: Oct 30 2008, 10:04 PM

[BrewerGeorge]

Thanks for the feedback George...I had that thought about the pils, but as I mentioned I'm not hooked on style guidelines and put it in the mix to add a little additional maltiness. I tend to brew malt centered ales and that may be where I go wrong with my lager attempts. Do you think subbing the pils for 2-row and keeping the Munich would be a good compromise to style and malt flavor, or would keeping the pils and subbing the munich for 2-row be a better approach to get a nice crisp dry lager with a nice malt backbone?

Kinda depends on what you're looking for. I usually brew a single American Standard each year just for the challenge, but really it's easier to buy it. If you want to make it as close to style as possible, it should really just be rice and 2-row. However, for sheer drink ability, I'd prefer your original recipe. It'll be a bit closer to vienna in style, but more interesting than a Bud clone.

Anyway, lagers are generally more about technique than recipe. Much more. Pitching big in the mid 40's and letting rise on its own to 50 or 52F solved my lager problems.

[ewanzel]

Kinda depends on what you're looking for. I usually brew a single American Standard each year just for the challenge, but really it's easier to buy it. If you want to make it as close to style as possible, it should really just be rice and 2-row. However, for sheer drink ability, I'd prefer your original recipe. It'll be a bit closer to vienna in style, but more interesting than a Bud clone.

Anyway, lagers are generally more about technique than recipe. Much more. Pitching big in the mid 40's and letting rise on its own to 50 or 52F solved my lager problems.

Thanks again George. Since I'm not going for the challenge of brewing a plain Jane clean American Standard I think I'll stick with the original recipe posted (unless someone else chimes in with some other feedback re: specifics/ratios). I really am just using the American Std as a jumping off point but want a little something something in the grain bill to give it some character and drinkability. I guess the Munich does push it towards a Vienna stylistically, but I couldn't even consider calling it anything besides an American lager if it uses rice.

Over the past couple months I've been reading up on the tech aspects of lager brewing and have identified some of my past errors in technique. How low into the 40s do you pitch? I might have to re-evaluate my cooling methods to do it, but if it makes that big of a difference I try to make it happen. I had come to the personal conclusion that if I get it down to 50 I would be fine, but I think you are saying that I need to pitch even cooler...how far down do you go?

Does anyone have feedback on the Bock?

[Jimmy James]

Good show getting back to the lagers. Regarding the Bock, I do one that is very similar, and I don't use the Caramel malt. I would leave it out. You could sub some of the Munich with Vienna to get a little more complexity in the malt profile. I do that and it turns out great. Mine is:
60% Pils
20% Munich
20% Vienna
60 minute Hallertauer to 19.3 IBU
15 minute Hallertauer to 5.1 IBU

I think the Magnum should be fine for the bittering hops, but I don't have any experience to draw upon with them in a lager. This bock will be fairly light in color and super-drinkable. I wouldn't hesitate to bump the Munich/Vienna totals up a little even, maybe to 50%. Also, I used WLP 833 too, and for the fermentation I started at 45 and let it warm up to fermentation temps. This was something I had heard on Jamil's show and it worked out great. It just meant with San Diego ground water temps cooling in the fridge and pitching the next morning, but it worked out awesome, great clean bock.

Let us know what you settle on and how it turns out!

[ewanzel]

Regarding the Bock, I do one that is very similar, and I don't use the Caramel malt. I would leave it out. You could sub some of the Munich with Vienna to get a little more complexity in the malt profile. I do that and it turns out great.

Jimmy, the dark caramel malt was mainly there to add a little bit of body and color. What temp do you mash your bock at to balance it out to have both the body and the dryness? It's always been my opinion that a key difference between a bock and other german lagers is that the bocks have a tad more body...hence the small crystal addition. Just wanting a little more info on your procedure...and thanks for the input.

[BrewerGeorge]

...
Over the past couple months I've been reading up on the tech aspects of lager brewing and have identified some of my past errors in technique. How low into the 40s do you pitch? I might have to re-evaluate my cooling methods to do it, but if it makes that big of a difference I try to make it happen. I had come to the personal conclusion that if I get it down to 50 I would be fine, but I think you are saying that I need to pitch even cooler...how far down do you go?
...

Pitching at 50F should be okay. Where I had troubles in the past (and made some odd-tasting lagers) was trying to pitch in the 60's. Whether it's cooled immediately or left in the fridge overnight before pitching, I've had much better results pitching colder and maintaining than pitching in the 60's and sticking it in the fridge to try to cool it quickly with the yeast already in. I know some people get good results this way. John Plise used to argue with Jamil over this point, I know. I just never made good enough beers that way.

[RecklessDeck]

Jimmy, the dark caramel malt was mainly there to add a little bit of body and color. What temp do you mash your bock at to balance it out to have both the body and the dryness? It's always been my opinion that a key difference between a bock and other german lagers is that the bocks have a tad more body...hence the small crystal addition. Just wanting a little more info on your procedure...and thanks for the input.

Funny...I'm preparing to do the same thing as you, see my post "first lager".

It seems if you nixed the caramel and mashed high, say 156, I think you would get the body you want without the sweetness. I'm adding .25# roasted wheat to get that beautiful near black color.

[Jimmy James]

Jimmy, the dark caramel malt was mainly there to add a little bit of body and color. What temp do you mash your bock at to balance it out to have both the body and the dryness? It's always been my opinion that a key difference between a bock and other german lagers is that the bocks have a tad more body...hence the small crystal addition. Just wanting a little more info on your procedure...and thanks for the input.

I mashed at 152, single infusion for 90 minutes and fly-sparged with 168dF water, collecting wort for about an hour - this ended up being an 11-gallon batch. My OG for this beer was 1.051 and I pitched 2 liters of starter into each of 2 6.5 gallon carboys with about 5.5 gallons of wort in each. I had prepped the starter at room temp and then cold-crashed and decanted it. Lag time was short - less than 24 hours anyways which was the first time I remember a lager ever taking off that quick. I fermented this in a fridge with temp-control, so it was possible to start just below the yeast's optimal range and then let it warm up and take off.

I think the dark caramel could be a good addition the more thought I put into this. My feelings about the recipe I brewed was that it was a very easy-drinking Bock. If I were to do anything different it'd be to boost the OG about 5 or 6 points and go heavier on the Munich and Vienna to get a little more color and make it bigger. As it was, it was very balanced, so I might boost the hops a tad too if I were to go bigger. The caramel may give you the color and make it a more burly Bock so in that respect I would be keen on hearing how it turns out. At an OG of 1.066 though I think you will get plenty of malty goodness w/out the caramel.

[ewanzel]

I think the dark caramel could be a good addition the more thought I put into this. My feelings about the recipe I brewed was that it was a very easy-drinking Bock. If I were to do anything different it'd be to boost the OG about 5 or 6 points and go heavier on the Munich and Vienna to get a little more color and make it bigger. As it was, it was very balanced, so I might boost the hops a tad too if I were to go bigger. The caramel may give you the color and make it a more burly Bock so in that respect I would be keen on hearing how it turns out. At an OG of 1.066 though I think you will get plenty of malty goodness w/out the caramel.

Shoot...I was just beginning to doubt the addition myself after pulling up JZ's maibock recipe (it's kind of scary how similar what I came up with was to his without looking at it previously). I know many use a bit of caramel in dunkel bocks so it wouldn't be too much of a leap out of style...so I guess the moral of the story is that I don't know what I'll do at this point. My guess I'll probably go with the caramel.

I'll have to think about boosting the hops...I think I'd be fine with 24 IBU, but the beer could handle 30-35 IBU without a problem, so I'll think about a small Hallertauer addition somewhere in there. Thanks for the insights all. I'll post the results and final recipe when I brew it...if it turns out well I'll send you a bottle for your help Jimmy.

[Jimmy James]

I'll post the results and final recipe when I brew it...if it turns out well I'll send you a bottle for your help Jimmy.

I am sure we could work out some sort of exchange! Hope it turns out and looking forward to the update. Cheers!

[ewanzel]

CODE

01A. American Lager, Light/Standard/Premium

OG    1.048
FG    1.012
IBU    16
ABV    4.6 %
SRM    4
Boil Volume     13 gallons
Batch Size     10.5 gallons
    
Fermentables
44.4 %     8#     German Pilsener     
22.2 %     4#     American Two-row Pale     
16.7 %     3#     Red Cargo Rice     
16.7 %     3#     Munich Light     
      
Hops
0.50oz     Whole Magnum - 14.2%AA (60 minute)
1.00oz     Whole Mount Hood - 4%AA (10 minute)

Just an update...I brewed this approx 2 weeks ago with a 4# cereal mash, protein rest at 128F, main rest a 154, 100 minute boil, and fermented it in the garage (ambient temp of 50-55F). The actual OG was 1.050 and the gravity at transfer today was 1.011. Gravity sample tasted clean and crisp already. I will do a D-rest for a few days and lager at approx 36F till x-mas when I'll tap one of the 2 kegs. Based on the gravity sample this should appease my swill drinking in-laws who will be here for the holidays. It has a bit more malt and hop flavor then a true American Standard, but should be a crisp and clean easy drinker for craft and non-craft beer drinkers slike. George and others, thanks for the feedback on this one...I'll keep you updated on how it progresses.

I'll be brewing the more traditional bock (recipe in the OP) sometime next week with about 1/2 the slurry and it sounds like I will also be doing a BoPils with my club president with the other half of the slurry in the next couple weeks. Does anyone have a solid BoPils recipe that they would be willing to share? Neither one of use have brewed on and will be shooting from the hip a bit, so any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks again!

[Yeasty Boy]

About the bock recipe, the only things I'd say would be replace the caramel with either more munich or half munich and half aromatic malt, and to bump that late hop addition to 10m. Minor.
Here's a BoPils I like:
8# Dingemans Pils
12oz Carapils
8oz 10°L crystal
6oz Acidulated
mash at 152, decoct for mashout (helps bring the color up from ~3.5 to 4.5-5.0 SRM)
32 IBU for bittering (I use .75oz Magnum at 40m)
1oz Saaz at 15
1.5oz Saaz at flameout
Wyeast 2000 (or your choice; a Southern German Munich-y strain will work as well, but I'd stay away from the dry Northern German types.)
Ferment at 50° for as long as it takes. I haven't needed a d-rest with 2000, but it's the kinda thing that can't hurt if you do one. Let it lager for at least three weeks, four is better.

[ewanzel]

About the bock recipe, the only things I'd say would be replace the caramel with either more munich or half munich and half aromatic malt, and to bump that late hop addition to 10m. Minor.
Here's a BoPils I like:
8# Dingemans Pils
12oz Carapils
8oz 10°L crystal
6oz Acidulated
mash at 152, decoct for mashout (helps bring the color up from ~3.5 to 4.5-5.0 SRM)
32 IBU for bittering (I use .75oz Magnum at 40m)
1oz Saaz at 15
1.5oz Saaz at flameout
Wyeast 2000 (or your choice; a Southern German Munich-y strain will work as well, but I'd stay away from the dry Northern German types.)
Ferment at 50° for as long as it takes. I haven't needed a d-rest with 2000, but it's the kinda thing that can't hurt if you do one. Let it lager for at least three weeks, four is better.

Thanks for the BoPils recipe Yeasty. I brewed the bock this AM with the crystal - since it's only ~3% I don't think it will be the end of the world that it is in there. I almost left it out, but threw it in at the last minute...such is life. I threw in the late hop addition at 7 minutes because I was thinking the same thing as you and split the difference. My actual OG was 1.062 and everything went smoothly. I'll post the results when I have them.