kräusening, Ales Options

[Piantini]

I know kräusening ales is seldom necessary since they ferment rapidly enough, but, how many of you use this method in ales and how do you accomplish it?.

Samuel Adams uses this method in its Boston Ale which I absolutely love for its complex and clear flavors and it is an inspiration for me. They claim they ferment at almost lager temperatures (I assume high 50's*) and condition longer which i do anyways (6+ weeks in bottles). I have diacetyl presence in my ale beers which i like to control (I do extracts and partial mash).

Here is how i plan to do it: I was thinking of brewing a 5 gallon batch of my own American Pale Ale recipe, then by end of primary fermentation brew a same recipe adjusted for a 6 gallons batch and get it going, take a half a gallon of the second and added to the first batch and move it to a secondary to complete fermentation, then bottle. Can you call this kräusening? Or is there an easier way?.

Can you still add fermenting wort to fermented beer, and bottle right away to finish fermentation in the bottle?. If yes, how much so that my bottles don't explode on me?.

EDIT: I also read I can do a diacetyl rest by bringing my beer to room temperature (I guess from basement temps low 60* to upstairs 70*) for a few days after primary fermentation. I guess at this point i can add the 1/2 gallon of fermenting wort and bring back down to the basement. THE MORE I READ THE MORE CONFUSE I GET!

This post has been edited by Piantini: Oct 31 2008, 02:19 PM

[tag]

Yep, you pretty much have a good handle on it.
I'm not sure why you are getting diacetyl in your ales though. Are you using a British Ale yeast?

[Piantini]

Yep, you pretty much have a good handle on it.
I'm not sure why you are getting diacetyl in your ales though. Are you using a British Ale yeast?

I typically use dry yeast. Mostly US-05 or munton's from their kids for my low gravity beers. diacetyl is described as a buttery flavor which i get. Wiki claims it is normal at low levels in alcoholic beers. I guess i get too sensitive when it comes to flavors. I am just trying to create a clean, balance beer and want to take advantange some of these methods in my benefit. Practice makes perfection (I hope).

Have you tried to continue fermentation in the bottle? How is this done?

This post has been edited by Piantini: Oct 31 2008, 03:16 PM

[tag]

I haven't gotten diacetyl from US-05 yeast. Maybe warm up the fermenter at the end of fermentation for 2-3 days. The yeast should remove it. How much yeast are you using, what gravity is your beer, and do you rehydrate the yeast before pitching?

[Denny]

And how long are you leaving the beer in the primary? Like Tom said, the yeast should generally clean it up if you give it a chance.

[ChrisKennedy]

When is the diacetyl showing up? If it is late, it could be a pedio infection.

[Boo Boo]

Krausenening is usually used to carbonate beer in kegs when it is done and I don't think it would be recommended for bottle use unless you absoultly know what level of fermentables you are working with. Very few homebrewers use krausening as a way to either carbonate or to drive down diacetyl.

When you add krausen to your brew you are starting the fermentation process again which allows diacetyl to again be created. This still takes time to decrease, so why not just leave your brew in primary a while longer to begin with as the others have suggested and do it right from the start.

[dmtaylor]

I have experimented before with krausening. The trouble is, the term "krausening" can mean all kinds of different things to different people. It often has to do with fermentation after the primary, but it seems to me like it's never exactly the same thing twice.

In my case -- this was a few years ago, I'd have to check my notes -- if I recall correctly, I added raw wort at bottling time or perhaps a couple of days ahead of bottling, and then bottled as-is without any additional priming sugar. Basically, the new wort WAS the priming sugar. I have the exact amounts and timing in my notes. If memory serves, I think I used something like a quart or two of raw wort to carbonate 3 gallons, but don't quote me, I'd have to look it up. And it MIGHT have had additional yeast in it, but I don't recall that -- for some reason, I'm thinking it was raw wort, without yeast, saved just after boiling and stored in the fridge until bottling time, and then the remaining yeast in the primary fermenter itself was what ate the new wort and carbonated the bottles. My understanding of "real" krausening is that it would have been actively fermenting with fresh yeast, and I can't remember if that was the case or not. So anyway...

In my case, the bottles all ended up being gushers. They didn't explode, but they foamed all over the place when opened, all you could get was foam, no liquid, unless you poured it all into a pitcher and waited for 15 minutes, in which case you had sort of a flat, very cloudy beer, with rocky head.

All that being said, I'd still be willing to try it again sometime, as it's an interesting and traditional, though somewhat unpredictable, priming method. It was an interesting little experiment. In the future, I'd try using about 1/3 as much krausening wort, it would probably be much closer to the mark.

So anyways.... if you're interested at all in this sort of method, PM me and I'll look up my notes and come up with a few suggestions on how to make it work better in the future.

[Piantini]

And how long are you leaving the beer in the primary? Like Tom said, the yeast should generally clean it up if you give it a chance.

I do 1-2 weeks primary them I do a secondary, bottle when i get a chance (2 to 4 weeks later, i notice my beer clears better).

I haven't gotten diacetyl from US-05 yeast. Maybe warm up the fermenter at the end of fermentation for 2-3 days. The yeast should remove it. How much yeast are you using, what gravity is your beer, and do you rehydrate the yeast before pitching?

Tag, I do rehydrate the yeast. My gravity always comes out short for some reason. I do partial mash and extracts.

When is the diacetyl showing up? If it is late, it could be a pedio infection

I do not think is an infection problem. It could be that I am being a little to confuse and sensitive with flavors. I usually use oxi-clean, rinse well then use B Brite. I like to double do things, make me feel better for some reason.

Krausenening is usually used to carbonate beer in kegs when it is done and I don't think it would be recommended for bottle use unless you absoultly know what level of fermentables you are working with. Very few homebrewers use krausening as a way to either carbonate or to drive down diacetyl.

When you add krausen to your brew you are starting the fermentation process again which allows diacetyl to again be created. This still takes time to decrease, so why not just leave your brew in primary a while longer to begin with as the others have suggested and do it right from the start.

Boo Boo, the reason I am interested in Krausenening is because I am interested in the complex flavors it creates. I have tried Samuel Adams beers that went thru this process and the results are really different from others which i absolutely love.

This post has been edited by Piantini: Nov 3 2008, 11:53 AM

[Piantini]

I have experimented before with krausening. The trouble is, the term "krausening" can mean all kinds of different things to different people. It often has to do with fermentation after the primary, but it seems to me like it's never exactly the same thing twice.

In my case -- this was a few years ago, I'd have to check my notes -- if I recall correctly, I added raw wort at bottling time or perhaps a couple of days ahead of bottling, and then bottled as-is without any additional priming sugar. Basically, the new wort WAS the priming sugar. I have the exact amounts and timing in my notes. If memory serves, I think I used something like a quart or two of raw wort to carbonate 3 gallons, but don't quote me, I'd have to look it up. And it MIGHT have had additional yeast in it, but I don't recall that -- for some reason, I'm thinking it was raw wort, without yeast, saved just after boiling and stored in the fridge until bottling time, and then the remaining yeast in the primary fermenter itself was what ate the new wort and carbonated the bottles. My understanding of "real" krausening is that it would have been actively fermenting with fresh yeast, and I can't remember if that was the case or not. So anyway...

In my case, the bottles all ended up being gushers. They didn't explode, but they foamed all over the place when opened, all you could get was foam, no liquid, unless you poured it all into a pitcher and waited for 15 minutes, in which case you had sort of a flat, very cloudy beer, with rocky head.

All that being said, I'd still be willing to try it again sometime, as it's an interesting and traditional, though somewhat unpredictable, priming method. It was an interesting little experiment. In the future, I'd try using about 1/3 as much krausening wort, it would probably be much closer to the mark.

So anyways.... if you're interested at all in this sort of method, PM me and I'll look up my notes and come up with a few suggestions on how to make it work better in the future.

DmTaylor,

You are right on the money. Everything you mention is exactly what i am interested. You are right when you say "krausening" could mean different things. I have kept reading and learning more on the subject. Some people do it right before bottling, others so it in secondary (after primary rough fermentation).

I am always interested in new techniques and method to improve my knowledge. Sometimes it is a waste of time, but other times you will find a great method that you will enjoy. Again, i am more interested in the complex/ clear flavors you are suppose to get when "krausening" to improve taste of beer. I get lots of stuff going on, specially the flowery, spicy taste i get from the dry ale yeast which suppously I can control by fermenting at almost lager temps. The problem is finding out how much "raw" wort to use after primary (I guess i am not interested in bottles anymore).

Anything that you can throw at the tables that will help me will be great by going back at your notes. I am kind of wondering how was the taste of your beer when you tried this method? and, if you have brewed the same beer before to compare to? I appreciate all you guys replies.

[dmtaylor]

Okay, here's my notes. I made 3.5 gallons of the stuff, with an original gravity of 1.061. So if you want to make 5 gallons (or whatever) of a similar gravity beer, you'll need to scale up the krausening and priming wort to get similar results. If you wanted to make a lower gravity brew, then I presume you would also need to increase the krausening and priming, inversely proportional -- since there would be less sugar in a lower gravity wort when you use it for krausening and priming, you'd need to use more of it to get similar results.

"After the boil, draw off into sanitized containers 5.5 cups for krausening, and 3 cups wort for priming (gyle). Into the remaining ~3 gallons, pitch yeast and ferment at 63 F for one week. Then add krausening wort and ferment 2 more weeks at 63 F. Then rack and cold condition at about 40 F for 4 to 6 weeks before adding priming gyle and bottling."

When young, the beer was delicious. At about 2-3 weeks in the bottle, it was perfectly carbonated. But then after perhaps 5-6 weeks, the beer dried out considerably, and the bottles all became gushers, and it became even worse with months of aging, to where eventually all I could get was foam, no liquid, unless settled in a pitcher for a good 15-20 minutes. So in the future, I figure you'd only want to use about 1/3 to 1/2 as much priming gyle, which would amount to 1 to 1.5 cups of 1.061 wort. Don't forget to consider all the scaling factors as discussed above. This should get you into the right ballpark, then you can tweak as necessary if you continue to try krausening and gyle priming in the future.

[kenlenard]

This is only partially on-topic: If you like Sam Adams Boston Ale, you should try White Labs 08 Patriot Ale yeast. I believe it's their strain and it produces the complex flavor you're talking about (personally, I describe it as 'tangy' which sounds bad, I know). Also, I have recently been experimenting with fermening ales at low temperatures with White Labs 01, Wyeast 1028, Wyeast 2112 and Wyeast 2565. 2112 and 2565 are meant to ferment cooler, no no big whoop. But White Labs 01 and Wyeast 1028 do amazingly well in the high 50s (it's best if you have a good volume of healthy yeast) and produce great, smooth, clean-tasting beers that still have some ale complexity. I have never attempted kraeusening, but I agree that if you don't know the exact fermentables, you could be playing with fire (with regard to bottling). Cheers and good luck.

[Piantini]

Okay, here's my notes. I made 3.5 gallons of the stuff, with an original gravity of 1.061. So if you want to make 5 gallons (or whatever) of a similar gravity beer, you'll need to scale up the krausening and priming wort to get similar results. If you wanted to make a lower gravity brew, then I presume you would also need to increase the krausening and priming, inversely proportional -- since there would be less sugar in a lower gravity wort when you use it for krausening and priming, you'd need to use more of it to get similar results.

"After the boil, draw off into sanitized containers 5.5 cups for krausening, and 3 cups wort for priming (gyle). Into the remaining ~3 gallons, pitch yeast and ferment at 63 F for one week. Then add krausening wort and ferment 2 more weeks at 63 F. Then rack and cold condition at about 40 F for 4 to 6 weeks before adding priming gyle and bottling."

When young, the beer was delicious. At about 2-3 weeks in the bottle, it was perfectly carbonated. But then after perhaps 5-6 weeks, the beer dried out considerably, and the bottles all became gushers, and it became even worse with months of aging, to where eventually all I could get was foam, no liquid, unless settled in a pitcher for a good 15-20 minutes. So in the future, I figure you'd only want to use about 1/3 to 1/2 as much priming gyle, which would amount to 1 to 1.5 cups of 1.061 wort. Don't forget to consider all the scaling factors as discussed above. This should get you into the right ballpark, then you can tweak as necessary if you continue to try krausening and gyle priming in the future.

Wow! That is more than I expected!. Thank you for all that knowledge!

[Yeasty Boy]

Can't you just add enough wort to raise the SG 2 points and then bottle?
IOW, a 1.050 beer, 5g would need another qt of unfermented 1.050 wort.
Seems if you aren't trying to condition you could put as much more wort in as you wanted, to the point of the new wort bringing in the green flavors anew. Without overpriming to worry about, I'd just save back a 1/2g and see how it comes out. I'm not too sure about the whole kräusening ="complex & clear" thing.You're basically just bringing in new, active yeast to cleanup what the previous growth couldn't. There are many beers/strains in which this process would be totally redundant. But hey, it can't hurt.

[Piantini]

Can't you just add enough wort to raise the SG 2 points and then bottle?
IOW, a 1.050 beer, 5g would need another qt of unfermented 1.050 wort.
Seems if you aren't trying to condition you could put as much more wort in as you wanted, to the point of the new wort bringing in the green flavors anew. Without overpriming to worry about, I'd just save back a 1/2g and see how it comes out. I'm not too sure about the whole kräusening ="complex & clear" thing.You're basically just bringing in new, active yeast to cleanup what the previous growth couldn't. There are many beers/strains in which this process would be totally redundant. But hey, it can't hurt.

For what I read, when "kräusening" the new yeast will clean up the flavor of the beer by reducing levels of diacetyl, acetaldehyde, and dries out the beer. The esterly/fruty flavors comes from acetaldehyde or ethanal, we do want this in ale type beers, but sometimes is too overpowering specially if you use dry yeast like I do. this can esterly flavors can be balance and clean up by "kräusening" as well as the buttery flavors caused by the high levels of diacetyl.