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> Chat Transcripts - Guest: Rick Theiner, Pres of LOGIC (One-step & Straight-A)
post Jan 29 2004, 08:54 PM
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[quote]Rick Theiner, President of LOGIC, Inc., manufacturer of Straight-A and One Step cleansers will be our guest this Sunday.

Rick has worked in Institutional and Industrial cleaning and sanitation for 13 years as a formulation and application chemist. In addition to founding
LOGIC, Inc. to bring his ideas regarding brewery cleaning to the public, he has created products and overseen their application in many areas of the food production, food service and beverage industry. Rick will be happy to discuss all aspects of cleanliness and sanitation in the homebrewery and is quite familiar with just about any product you use in that capacity. Please keep things orderly for Mr. Theiner and follow the "?" protocol.[/quote]
Sun Jan 25 20:14:56 brian I called Ale but no answer, either at home or on his cell
Sun Jan 25 20:15:11 cj_in_j Well, brian, you can take over for him!
Sun Jan 25 20:15:12 Thomas brian: then you get to start the chat session!
Sun Jan 25 20:15:15 brian The weather here in Charlotte is pretty bad
Sun Jan 25 20:15:17 ted brian, call him at the store
Sun Jan 25 20:15:30 brian I'll call him at the store.
Sun Jan 25 20:15:38 Cam Is there an echo?
Sun Jan 25 20:15:40 ted lol *slap*
Sun Jan 25 20:16:04 Thomas echo
Sun Jan 25 20:16:05 brian FYI, I lost power about an hour ago here at my house. It just came back about 20 minutes ago.
Sun Jan 25 20:16:15 cj_in_j echo echo echo *belch*
Sun Jan 25 20:16:20 Thomas as long as the beer is unharmed brian!
Sun Jan 25 20:16:32 brian Thomas: Exactly!
Sun Jan 25 20:17:12 Thomas in case of fire, evacute beer and liqour first!
Sun Jan 25 20:17:34 brian RickDude: You're Ale's guest right?
Sun Jan 25 20:17:40 Rickdude Right.
Sun Jan 25 20:17:49 ted so we could start
Sun Jan 25 20:18:00 kiwicanoeboy sounds like it
Sun Jan 25 20:18:01 cj_in_j ?
Sun Jan 25 20:18:08 ted go CJ
Sun Jan 25 20:18:14 brian Well then, in lieu of Ale, I officially welcome you to the chat. Let's get started. And remember the ? protocol. Questions?
Sun Jan 25 20:18:27 ted chat has started, Brian is monitor
Sun Jan 25 20:18:28 brian Go CJ
Sun Jan 25 20:18:32 cj_in_j Clear it up for us one and for all -- is your product a sanitizer or just a cleaner?!?!?
Sun Jan 25 20:18:45 Rickdude Wow... right to the big ones.<g>
Sun Jan 25 20:18:53 cj_in_j (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/smile.gif)
Sun Jan 25 20:19:04 Rickdude And right now-- forgive my lack of emoticons... I'm too slow on the right click..
Sun Jan 25 20:19:23 Rickdude But the answer to that is that it will produce hydrogen peroxide in solution... both of them...
Sun Jan 25 20:19:32 Rickdude That is, Straight-A and One Step...
Sun Jan 25 20:19:51 Rickdude But to say that they sanitize, legally, I have to register with the EPA...
Sun Jan 25 20:19:56 ted ?
Sun Jan 25 20:20:10 Rickdude The feds have a lock on what is a sanitizer, and thus they charge a fee...
Sun Jan 25 20:20:22 Rickdude first through 3rd party testing and then through registration...
Sun Jan 25 20:20:47 Rickdude I am not exaggerating to say that it would run be over 1M$ to register on the front end...
Sun Jan 25 20:21:01 Rickdude and then several tens of thousands to maintain that annually...
Sun Jan 25 20:21:17 cj_in_j Wow!
Sun Jan 25 20:21:28 Rickdude I just don't have the resources. But a way around it is to have the raw material manufacturer pony up for the fees...
Sun Jan 25 20:21:50 Rickdude and they subregister from them. Solvay doesn't think there's enough of a market, even though they have gotten
Sun Jan 25 20:22:19 Rickdude the registration in place for use of the percarbonate (active ingredient) as a fungicide and ageacide (which is actually tougher)...
Sun Jan 25 20:22:42 Rickdude in reservoirs. there's studies on peroxygens to back them up, but no actual registration...
Sun Jan 25 20:22:48 Rickdude (I'm almost done)
Sun Jan 25 20:23:18 Rickdude Straight-A was intended to be a cleaner-sanitizer, but the truth is that a soiled surface cannot be efffectively sanitized...
Sun Jan 25 20:23:41 Rickdude So One Step came out as the active ingredient buffered toward the neutral end of the pH spectrum as a final rinse product.
Sun Jan 25 20:23:54 cj_in_j So I guess the summary is that One Step sanitizes but isn't a sanitizer (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/wink.gif) . Thanks.
Sun Jan 25 20:24:06 Rickdude In a nutshell, that's it.<G>
Sun Jan 25 20:24:13 Rickdude Uh, how do I say, done?
Sun Jan 25 20:24:13 brian Thanks, Rick, for the thorough answer! Just finish your reply by typng "end", and I'll know to go to the next question.
Sun Jan 25 20:24:15 cj_in_j Cool. Thanks again.
Sun Jan 25 20:24:31 brian Go ted
Sun Jan 25 20:24:32 ted how does Straight A compare to PBW?
Sun Jan 25 20:24:49 IrishJny ?
Sun Jan 25 20:24:53 cj_in_j ?
Sun Jan 25 20:24:58 Rickdude Last time I checked, they were on par in all the detergency tests that matter...
Sun Jan 25 20:25:35 Rickdude That was in '99, and it's possible that it's reformulated...
Sun Jan 25 20:25:42 Rickdude Straight-A has been reformulated, too...
Sun Jan 25 20:25:56 ted how so
Sun Jan 25 20:25:58 Rickdude So I'd say that you've got about the same thing.
Sun Jan 25 20:26:03 Rickdude How so?...
Sun Jan 25 20:26:11 ted yes, please
Sun Jan 25 20:26:23 Rickdude I've added some material that helps to disperse big soil clots so that they rinse more easily...
Sun Jan 25 20:26:45 Rickdude And the same material will help to sequester or tie up water hardness ions for better rinsing.
Sun Jan 25 20:26:58 Rickdude end.
Sun Jan 25 20:27:05 brian Go Irish
Sun Jan 25 20:27:17 ted Thank you
Sun Jan 25 20:27:23 Rickdude MP!
Sun Jan 25 20:27:48 IrishJny How similar is One step to PBW? Are they different, and how do the results differ?
Sun Jan 25 20:28:01 Rickdude That's a good follow up to the above question...
Sun Jan 25 20:28:23 Rickdude (and I'm trying to be short-- if ya'll want me to be more verbose, I got lots of stuff that I'm leaving out<g>)
Sun Jan 25 20:28:44 Rickdude PBW has a higher level of alkalinity, silicates, and sequestrants/dispersants...
Sun Jan 25 20:28:50 IrishJny we got time , Rick!
Sun Jan 25 20:29:02 brian Feel free to type away! We've got all night!
Sun Jan 25 20:29:16 cj_in_j All morning, for me.
Sun Jan 25 20:29:27 Rickdude I also am pretty sure that they have (Thanks, Irish) a low level of non-foaming surfactant or wetting agent, although it's tough to test for that...
Sun Jan 25 20:30:02 Rickdude So it's a good detergent, no doubt, but it also has a lot of things that need to be rinsed. That's really part of the job description...
Sun Jan 25 20:30:14 Rickdude Rinse the chemical and rinse the soil away at the same time.
Sun Jan 25 20:30:30 Rickdude One Step has got some alkali and oxidizer, but there the resemblance ends...
Sun Jan 25 20:31:03 IrishJny So, how would a cleaning and then a soak with PBW and Starsan compare to using one step?
Sun Jan 25 20:31:08 Rickdude In fact, the pH (do I need to explain pH?) of PBW is around 10 - 11, and should be for what it's doing. One Step is around 8, and that was
Sun Jan 25 20:31:21 Rickdude so that you don't need to follow it with a rinse to neutralize alkalinity...
Sun Jan 25 20:31:53 IrishJny Last issue....beerstone!
Sun Jan 25 20:32:00 Rickdude The One Step was set up to actually rinse a previously cleaned surface, although a number of folks use it for both...
Sun Jan 25 20:32:10 Rickdude And I'll get to the beerstone, don't worry.<G>
Sun Jan 25 20:32:11 IrishJny One step and the PBW comparison
Sun Jan 25 20:32:20 IrishJny OK, sorry!
Sun Jan 25 20:32:32 Rickdude PBW and StarSan is a great proces...
Sun Jan 25 20:33:00 Rickdude After our last conversation, I've spent a good bit of time checking out the beerstone issue, and really, it can be a problem...
Sun Jan 25 20:33:11 Rickdude With the PBW or Straight-A by itself...
Sun Jan 25 20:33:37 Rickdude StarSan will help to break that out... but it's not always necessary... see, caustic has a lot to do with making a really...
Sun Jan 25 20:34:04 Rickdude heavy duty beerstone scale. Using a non-caustic will help to slow or even prevent the formation of beerstone, depending on...
Sun Jan 25 20:34:14 Rickdude the mineral content of your water and wort...
Sun Jan 25 20:34:35 IrishJny More calcium, more beerstone.eh?
Sun Jan 25 20:35:02 Rickdude Right! Gee.... I think I've gone a bit afield.<G> But I'd stick with PBW or Straight-A for heavy cleaning, and StarSan as a rinse if you
Sun Jan 25 20:35:13 Rickdude have a problem with calcite/beerstone.
Sun Jan 25 20:35:20 Rickdude Uh, did I finish?<G> End.
Sun Jan 25 20:35:25 cj_in_j So One Step is considered no-rinse? As a sanitizer (or for its sanitization properties), that is.
Sun Jan 25 20:35:26 IrishJny Thanks Rick!
Sun Jan 25 20:35:27 brian Thanks Rick. And no, you don't need to explain pH to Irish. Go CJ
Sun Jan 25 20:35:54 IrishJny Ha! <<<Brian!
Sun Jan 25 20:36:00 Rickdude That's right, CJ.end.
Sun Jan 25 20:36:01 ted lol
Sun Jan 25 20:36:07 cj_in_j Good. Thanks again.
Sun Jan 25 20:36:22 cj_in_j edn
Sun Jan 25 20:36:30 cj_in_j oops, end my question
Sun Jan 25 20:36:46 brian Anyone else with a question fro RicDude?
Sun Jan 25 20:37:06 Rickdude If not, I can throw something in.
Sun Jan 25 20:37:15 twocents ?
Sun Jan 25 20:37:17 brian Go ahead
Sun Jan 25 20:37:19 cj_in_j Go Rickdude.
Sun Jan 25 20:37:23 twocents safe with stainless still I presume?
Sun Jan 25 20:37:33 twocents oops. steel
Sun Jan 25 20:37:38 twocents I do NOT run a still
Sun Jan 25 20:37:46 Cam SURE!!
Sun Jan 25 20:37:50 Rickdude Right, twocents, although that is also an interesting point...
Sun Jan 25 20:38:05 IrishJny ?
Sun Jan 25 20:38:15 Rickdude (Actually, when it comes to cleaning, it's all interesting-- I guess I'm just a cleaning geek)
Sun Jan 25 20:38:31 cj_in_j lol
Sun Jan 25 20:38:39 brian A cleaning geek among brew geeks!
Sun Jan 25 20:39:02 Rickdude Caustic will often require you to repassivate the stainless steel, and so will some acids, (if I understand properly-- I'm no metallurgist...
Sun Jan 25 20:39:33 Rickdude so we'll have to ask JPalmer about that) but non-caustics like Straight-A and PBW will help to repassivate...
Sun Jan 25 20:39:38 twocents >
Sun Jan 25 20:39:41 twocents ?
Sun Jan 25 20:39:53 ted welcome ale
Sun Jan 25 20:40:07 cj_in_j ?
Sun Jan 25 20:40:08 Rickdude the stainless, too. So it's not always necessary to worry about that on the acid side.
Sun Jan 25 20:40:11 twocents define repassivate
Sun Jan 25 20:40:11 Rickdude end.
Sun Jan 25 20:40:12 JDonovan Caustic does not have to be repassivated
Sun Jan 25 20:40:15 IrishJny ale looks Pale!
Sun Jan 25 20:40:25 Cam *welcome* Ale
Sun Jan 25 20:40:27 brian Go Irish
Sun Jan 25 20:40:31 twocents hail ale
Sun Jan 25 20:40:31 ale Brewersm my sincerest apologoies for being so late!!!
Sun Jan 25 20:40:53 ale How's it been going?
Sun Jan 25 20:40:58 cj_in_j ale -- you're forgiven, this time.
Sun Jan 25 20:40:58 IrishJny i have read threads about PBW discoloring aluminum, in a big way,,,,
Sun Jan 25 20:41:02 Rickdude Actually, J, you're right about one time, but it is recommended that passivation be carried out after a number of cleanings with caustic...
Sun Jan 25 20:41:06 Rickdude Honestly, I can
Sun Jan 25 20:41:11 Rickdude 't
Sun Jan 25 20:41:14 twocents define repassivate?
Sun Jan 25 20:41:20 Rickdude that is can't say if that's right.
Sun Jan 25 20:41:40 IrishJny I had some in an aluminum pot, and there was also alot of scaling that was very hard to remove...any thoughts?
Sun Jan 25 20:41:50 Rickdude Passivation is essentially putting the stainless in a state where it will oxidize properly-- as in not corrode or rust.
Sun Jan 25 20:41:51 JDonovan yes after a number of cleanings. If after every cleaning though no pub brewer would ever use it, it would become too labor intensive
Sun Jan 25 20:42:03 twocents ty
Sun Jan 25 20:42:24 Rickdude Uh... I'm lost.. Hey, Ale!
Sun Jan 25 20:42:52 cj_in_j I think it's Irish's question now.
Sun Jan 25 20:42:57 IrishJny Sorry, rick....
Sun Jan 25 20:42:57 Rickdude Sorry! End.
Sun Jan 25 20:42:58 brian Rick: Please answer Irish first
Sun Jan 25 20:43:15 Rickdude Okay.. Had to read up...
Sun Jan 25 20:43:21 Cam See you all later. Thanks for the information Rick
Sun Jan 25 20:43:25 JDonovan sorry maybe I mis-read the post...doing too many things at once here....Wife just pulled in and quite exhauseted looking, time to go....L8R Gents!
Sun Jan 25 20:43:49 Rickdude Uh, okay, the problem with aluminum...
Sun Jan 25 20:44:04 JDonovan ale hope you have gotten my emails......gone *poof*
Sun Jan 25 20:44:15 ale Rick, Sorry to be so tardt. Ice storm here in Charlotte!!. Crappy phone connection and cell on the charger.
Sun Jan 25 20:44:43 Rickdude (Us, too, believe it or not, Ale!) Is that it is a "soft" metal... not soft as in you don't mind getting hit with it...
Sun Jan 25 20:44:58 seamus7 Whats up guys
Sun Jan 25 20:45:14 Rickdude But soft as in it is open to corrossion. You probably noticed that it was much worse at the solution-water interface, which is where...
Sun Jan 25 20:45:56 Rickdude the alkalinity was concentrated during evaporation. But the bottom line is that the active alkali in PBW, just like Straight-A (gotta get that in)...
Sun Jan 25 20:46:13 cj_in_j =)
Sun Jan 25 20:46:31 IrishJny OK, so alkalone cleaners are NOT so good for aluminum?
Sun Jan 25 20:46:37 Rickdude Is pretty tough. We use silicates to protect the metal, but when you get a heavy concentration, the silicates aren't enough...
Sun Jan 25 20:46:48 Rickdude And I'm not saying that, Irish<G>...
Sun Jan 25 20:47:06 IrishJny Or just short soaks are better?
Sun Jan 25 20:47:21 Rickdude Don't use it at a high concentration, and don't use it at a low concentration-- the silicate level has to be in the proper range for protection...
Sun Jan 25 20:47:48 Rickdude and extended soaks WILL cause a problem because you'll get concentrations at that interface that are beyond what you want.
Sun Jan 25 20:47:52 Rickdude End.
Sun Jan 25 20:48:11 IrishJny Thanks I kind of thought so!
Sun Jan 25 20:48:17 ale Go 2 cents
Sun Jan 25 20:48:31 fbwr75215 I just finished my high seirra pale ale
Sun Jan 25 20:48:51 fbwr75215 i am just trying to get my room below 70
Sun Jan 25 20:49:01 fbwr75215 my roommates keep cranking the heat up
Sun Jan 25 20:49:06 twocents already answered, ale
Sun Jan 25 20:49:09 twocents thanks
Sun Jan 25 20:49:17 ale Go CJ
Sun Jan 25 20:49:18 cj_in_j Since you're a cleaning geek <grin>, what do you recommend for cleaning beer drinking glasses, like pint glasses?
Sun Jan 25 20:49:35 Rickdude Okay, I hope none of the guys from my brew club are here, '
Sun Jan 25 20:49:50 Rickdude 'cos they'll never take a pint from me again.<g>
Sun Jan 25 20:50:04 cj_in_j Uh oh!
Sun Jan 25 20:50:04 Rickdude I use water. Hot water, rinse, let dry...
Sun Jan 25 20:50:18 cj_in_j No detergent at all???
Sun Jan 25 20:50:39 Rickdude If we've let them set for a period of time, I'll use a scrubbie that has some soap residue in it, but I don't apply soap directly to the glasses...
Sun Jan 25 20:51:01 Rickdude Every now and then, I'll run one through the dishwasher, but with no rinse aid...
Sun Jan 25 20:51:08 IrishJny ? related Q
Sun Jan 25 20:51:19 Rickdude I guess you guys know that the rinse aid will kill the head retention?
Sun Jan 25 20:51:26 twocents yes
Sun Jan 25 20:51:29 cj_in_j Yeah, no dishwasher here, though.
Sun Jan 25 20:51:41 Rickdude But, no, honestly, I don't use soap on my glasses too often.
Sun Jan 25 20:51:44 Rickdude end.
Sun Jan 25 20:51:55 cj_in_j Irish, follow up -- go.
Sun Jan 25 20:52:07 GHawk I have a dishwasher... she JUST left the room
Sun Jan 25 20:52:08 ale Go Irish
Sun Jan 25 20:52:25 IrishJny How about bottle cleaning? Soaking and all that with straight A!?
Sun Jan 25 20:52:35 Rickdude You're a brave man, Ghawk!
Sun Jan 25 20:52:46 Rickdude Definately soak with Straight-A...
Sun Jan 25 20:52:56 Rickdude The problem to watch out for...
Sun Jan 25 20:53:25 Rickdude And really, for just about any cleaner, is to not let the cleaning solution level drop below the level of the bottles-- that is if you're...
Sun Jan 25 20:53:48 Rickdude doing an extended soak. Just to clean, I use my, uh, what is that thing?...
Sun Jan 25 20:54:01 IrishJny jet?
Sun Jan 25 20:54:10 cj_in_j ?
Sun Jan 25 20:54:12 Rickdude We call it a "sploogie" but I think the proper name is a vinator or something--
Sun Jan 25 20:54:39 Rickdude You use it to spray solution up into the bottom of bottles. Following that, I'll visually inspect and put some solution in the bottom...
Sun Jan 25 20:54:48 kiwicanoeboy ? kinda realted
Sun Jan 25 20:54:57 Rickdude if necessary. For delabelling, though, I'll fill a bucket and forget them for a day or so...
Sun Jan 25 20:55:17 IrishJny I have a jet bottle washe, sprays up into the bottle at high pressuere....
Sun Jan 25 20:55:34 Rickdude If you're in a hurry, BTW, Straight-A started out as targeted for my own bottle labels-- it will pop them off in about 5 - 10 minutes.
Sun Jan 25 20:55:49 Rickdude end.
Sun Jan 25 20:55:53 ale Go C.J.
Sun Jan 25 20:56:11 cj_in_j Let kiwi go first, I'll go after that.
Sun Jan 25 20:56:19 ale Go kiwi
Sun Jan 25 20:56:20 kiwicanoeboy How about the 5 gal "cornies" use Straight A to clean those?
Sun Jan 25 20:56:41 Rickdude Absolutely!! Especially in my brewhouse situation...
Sun Jan 25 20:57:00 Rickdude I'll kill a keg an pull it out fo the fridge to make room for the next one..
Sun Jan 25 20:57:27 Rickdude but won't rinse it and clean it right away... (this comes from having a new one in the family- 6 mos. at the moment)
Sun Jan 25 20:57:32 IrishJny Rick, most informative! Thanks much! I do have to run. Slainte all!
Sun Jan 25 20:57:41 Thomas later Irish
Sun Jan 25 20:58:08 Rickdude AFter it sits for 3- 4 weeks, I'll perform keg cleaning...<g>
Sun Jan 25 20:58:52 Rickdude with some trepidation. A soak for another week after rinsing cleans them up like a charm! (Yep, I'm one of those guys-- see why I do cleaners?<G>).
Sun Jan 25 20:58:57 Rickdude end.
Sun Jan 25 20:58:59 kiwicanoeboy ok thanks, wasn't sure if they were alum. and if i should have used straight A
Sun Jan 25 20:59:10 ale Go C.J.
Sun Jan 25 20:59:12 cj_in_j Let's get to the sales info -- how big a container do you sell Straight A and One Step in? And do you export to Japan? (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/wink.gif)
Sun Jan 25 20:59:25 Rickdude Ah, that's what the J is for, eh?...
Sun Jan 25 20:59:50 cj_in_j Yep!
Sun Jan 25 21:00:15 Rickdude Wait-- do you know the guy that brewed the chocolate toasted coconut porter? (AHA BOY?)... I managed to get a taste of the recipe, but not the original and it was incredible!!!
Sun Jan 25 21:00:58 Rickdude As for sales, I usually work through distributors, but I don't have one in Japan. I sell in 50# pails as the standard size and my distributors...
Sun Jan 25 21:01:03 cj_in_j Yeah, I met him a few times. Interesting guy, to say the lest.
Sun Jan 25 21:01:11 cj_in_j Total beer geek!
Sun Jan 25 21:01:20 ted lol
Sun Jan 25 21:01:33 Thomas says the total beer geek
Sun Jan 25 21:01:36 Thomas lol
Sun Jan 25 21:01:39 Howie That beer's been a topic on our board, Rick
Sun Jan 25 21:02:10 Rickdude I bet!!<g> Great beer, though... My distributors will repackage (No kidding? Maybe I should look for the recipe-- is that on there?), but I don't...
Sun Jan 25 21:02:41 ted I can find the recipe in Zymurgy for you
Sun Jan 25 21:02:44 Rickdude If you're interested in bringing in a 50# pail, send me email and we'll talk. I can't talk pricing here, or LD Carlson will get a little ticked off.
Sun Jan 25 21:02:55 Rickdude And I'd appreciate that, Ted.
Sun Jan 25 21:02:59 Rickdude End.
[color=green]Sun Jan 25 21:03
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Ham on Rye
post Jan 30 2004, 04:21 PM
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Joined: 7-October 03
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Great Chat...Very informative...Thanks...
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