Victoria Beer from Mexico..., Need recipe help & can't "research" Options

[kenlenard]

In this thread, JimInNJ mentions that he would like to make a Mexican Vienna. He restarted an interest that I have had since 2002 to try to duplicate Victoria Lager (brewed by Grupo Modelo). The beer is considered a Vienna (it's a light amber color) but you can assume that it's got a Mexican twist to it... it's lighter (only 4%), probably has corn in it and it's lower on the hop scale than a traditional Vienna from Germany, Austria, etc. I have had this beer in Mexico but it's been 6+ years and the beer is not sold in the US (at least not anywhere in my area). I have an empty painted bottle that only says 4.0% Alc. Vol. and that's my only clue. Here is a picture of the beer in a rare clear bottle (the bottles I saw in MX and the one I have is brown) so at least you can see the color of the beer. It seems like the beer maybe only has 1 hop addition of 4.5 to 5 AAU (maybe less) at 60 minutes and that's it. I assume the hops are Hallertau, Tettnanger or other mild noble hop and my assumption is that the yeast is something like WL830 or Wyeast 2124. So... I'm asking homebrewers everywhere... have you had this beer? Do you have any clues? I have emailed Grupo Modelo and they have sent back polite "thank you for your interest..." type emails back. I sent another email yesterday specifically asking for detailed info, but I doubt I'll find it. The "working" recipe I have put together looks like this...

A stab at Victoria

3.25 lbs Pilsner Malt
2.5 lbs Vienna
1.5 lbs Munich
1 lb Flaked Corn
4 oz Belgian Caramunich
1/4 oz Black Malt
4.5 AAU Hallertau pellets for 60 minutes
White Labs 830 German Lager yeast

OG: 1.043, FG: 1.011, IBU: 20, SRM: 7, ABV: 4.1%

[kenlenard]

I made this beer early this morning and made it as the recipe shows. The color looks very close but may be just a smidge darker than I was shooting for. Otherwise, everything looked good and I pitched a GIANT blob of fresh, active WLP830 German lager yeast and the primary is sitting in my swamp cooler at 48°. I suppose my goal is to just make a beer in the spirit of the original because I can't get my hands on any real Victoria. I have a friend who works in the booze business and I asked him if he had any contacts at Modelo. He said that he knows one of the biggest guys in distribution for Modelo and said he would check to see if any Victoria finds its way into the US (I have heard stories of people finding it in hispanic markets in the US, etc). If anyone knows of a way to get the real thing, please let me know and I'll pay to have some shipped to me. I know this is not much interest for homebrewers, but this beer is right up my alley. Cheers.

[sdeweese]

kenlenard, you seem to be the most active pursuer of Mexican style beers. I appreciate your research as I have had limited success in cloning these beers since trying to get Bohemia from a Clone Brews recipe that MAZ gave me a few years ago. Your base seems to be pils, vienna, munich and flaked corn using the WL 830. The use of corn seems entirely reasonable given the locale, though I have yet to add that. Why did WL come up with the Mexican Lager yeast if the WL 830 is probably more realistic? What do you suppose the water is like in Monterrey, Mexico and how would that effect the choice of adjuncts? Does a Bohemia follow your base Mexican malt format? Merely questions, not meaning to be argumentative as I've got nothin'.

[kenlenard]

At this point, everything is a stab in the dark. I had an email conversation with Chris White (is that his name...?) from White Labs about the 940 and he said that it is one of the traditional Mexican lager strains but not the only one. I asked him what I should use if I couldn't get 940 (because it's a platinum strain) and he said 830. 830 is the most widely used lager yeast in the world and I have read a few things about how many, many Germans emigrated to Mexico between the 1st and 2nd world war and how they set up a lot of the Mexican brewing infrastructure. So the 830 was a good bet. The 940 will become available again in March (I think) and I will grab some and try that one too. I got some a few years ago but my lager technique was lacking so this would be a better situation. As far as the rest goes, Modelo considers this beer a "Vienna". We can all assume that it's an interpretation of the style redesigned for the local population. So I concluded pilsner and vienna. But I didn't have much vienna so I used some Munich too. Then I added corn because it's a Mexican beer and my assumption is that they use corn. I also read a bunch of reviews on Ratebeer and Beer Advocate and heard many people talk about "sweetness", "corn aroma", "a little more bitterness than other Mexican beers", etc. If they decoct this beer, the color may come from that, but I just added some CaraMunich and a pinch of black malt and I got a really nice color that is just about dead-on for this beer. On the water... my assumption is that it's soft or that they make it soft because almost everything they brew down there is light and watery and is meant to have a soft feel to it. The adjunct thing is stricty a Mexican thing so that's where I went with it. Everything I read on these beers suggest that they are "high-adjunct". My recipe was only 12% flaked corn so I think it's reasonable. I may have a recipe for Bohemia... let me look and see. My guess would be pils, corn, possibly sugar of some sort. Maybe some amount of a light specialty grain or vienna or munich, probably noble hops and something like 830, 2124 or 940. Once I use the 940 again, I'll get a better feel for it. I know most brewers think this beer is forgettable, but maybe I can make a nice homebrewer's version of it. Cheers.

[Daryl]

ken,
I haven't forgotten about this yet. I was told it's not availble in the border towns and only in Mexico. I have some friends that hunt in Mexico, they will be my next attempt at getting some. How did the beer you made come out?

[kenlenard]

Hey Daryl... thanks for the bump. The beer I orginally made with 830 ended up funky for some reason. I think something happened to the yeast when I harvested it. But in the meantime, I did some extra research and I also emailed Chris White of White Labs to ask him about the 940 Mexican Lager strain. I had found a few sites that suggest that 940 is actually Modelo's yeast. So I ordered a couple of vials and made the beer again, slightly different. It went something like this...

4 lbs Vienna
3.25 lbs American 2-row
1 lb flaked corn
4 oz Belgian Caramunich
1/4 oz Black malt
1.75 oz Hallertau Hersbrucker @ 2.7% for 60 minutes
.25 oz Hallertau Hersbrcker for 20 minutes
White Labs 940 Mexican Lager Yeast

I also think I used some percentage of distilled water just to soften it a little. It's currently in secondary and the only thing(s) I know for sure is that I nailed the color and it looks and smells like beer. Cheers & thanks again.

Ps. Forgot to mention that when the Victoria was done, I "washed" that yeast and then used it in a pale Mexican lager that went something like this...

6 lbs American 2-row
2 lbs Vienna
1 lb flaked corn
½ lb malted wheat
1 oz Tettnanger 4.8% for 60 minutes
White Labs 940
same 1/2 filtered tap 1/2 distilled as in the Victoria

OG: 1.049, FG: 1.012, IBU: 21, SRM: 3, ABV: 4.8%

This post has been edited by kenlenard: Apr 10 2009, 11:31 AM

[Daryl]

Ken,
I found someone that goes to Mexico once a month. Next time they go they are going to look for this beer and if they find it will pick some up for us. Just letting you know that I might be getting closer to getting some.
Daryl

[kenlenard]

Ken,
I found someone that goes to Mexico once a month. Next time they go they are going to look for this beer and if they find it will pick some up for us. Just letting you know that I might be getting closer to getting some.
Daryl

Wow, Daryl that is sweet. Your timing is uncanny because I just took my keg of "Hacienda Lager" off the gas this afternoon. It was beautifully clear from secondary to keg on Thursday and it smelled very nice too. My wife and I are planning to go out to a Mexican restaurant tonight but I may sneak a sample of this beer before we leave. If you manage to get your hands on some Victoria, please let me know... I'll send a Paypal payment to cover the costs. Cheers!

[harryfrog]

My wife and I are planning to go out to a Mexican restaurant tonight but I may sneak a sample of this beer before we leave.

So, what's the verdict?

[kenlenard]

I'm very happy with it. The color is just slightly lighter than the original which may require a small tweak and I think I'll try it again with some amount of distilled water because my water is a little hard. That would make it a little smoother. I have to say that this WLP940 makes a damn fine lager and it has a unique but still-familiar flavor to it. I have been drinking it for the past few days and I think it may be darn close to what I remember in MX. Cheers!

[Daryl]

I'm very happy with it. The color is just slightly lighter than the original which may require a small tweak and I think I'll try it again with some amount of distilled water because my water is a little hard. That would make it a little smoother. I have to say that this WLP940 makes a damn fine lager and it has a unique but still-familiar flavor to it. I have been drinking it for the past few days and I think it may be darn close to what I remember in MX. Cheers!

Well I hope my contact comes thru so I can refresh your memory. I am also planning a trip to the homebrew store to grab a vial of wlp 940 before they disappear until next year. I am going to moe my Vienna recipe with it and then use it for a batch of this.

If you get a chance take a look at the chop house Belgian I posted and let me know what u think.

[kenlenard]

It would be very cool to compare what I have here to the real Victoria. I can't say for sure that I made anything close to Victoria because I can't get my hands on it. But I can say that I have made a delightful variation of a Mexican Vienna Lager that is quite nice. I will check your Belgian recipe, but Belgians are not my thing so I'd be stabbing in the dark. Cheers.

This post has been edited by kenlenard: May 5 2009, 09:20 AM

[Daryl]

Give me some time and I will get my hands on some victoria beer for ya. Thanks again for the feedback on the belgian

[kenlenard]

Keep me posted. It would be awesome to get my hands on some, but don't knock yourself out. If some falls in your lap because you know someone, awesome. But don't waste a lot of time on it... this may just be one of those times where you have a good memory of something because you can't get your hands on it. Cheers & thanks in advance.

[Daryl]

I know the feeling of having a good memory of something because u can't get your hands on it. I bet the victoria beer won't be the case. I am making the belgain for my wife, I hope her taste haven't changed to the point that she won't still love it.