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> Chat Transcripts - Guest John Palmer, returning guest, author of "How to Brew"
post Sep 6 2004, 01:11 PM
Post #1


Group: banned
Posts: 666
Joined: 16-March 02
From: Mooresville, NC
Member No.: 201

John Palmer will be our return guest this Sunday. John is the author of "How to Brew" and has written countless articles for Zymugy, Brew Your Own, and Brewing Techniques magazine. John's day job is a Metallurgical Engineer and he's particularly qualified to answer questions about Brewery construction.

ale:John's on the way!!
Ted:welcome John
jikastew:double that, welcome
paulcav:Hi John
jjpalmer:howdy! I was outside painting, sorry about that!
Beershasta:Hope your having a good holiday weekend John.
Ted:or should we play the theme to welcome back Kotter for him
JDonovan:bout time John.....you in the wrong Buffet again??
Chauvan:Ted, we were thinkin' the Rocky theme
jjpalmer:I just had to let my wife know that I am unavailable to finish the fence
ale:Welcome John Palmer.
twocents:you know, mIRC supports uploading your own sound wavs
Ted:hey I was watching the Rockython today!! lol
twocents:uhoh mr palmer, you are in trouble
Beershasta:You welcome then John
jjpalmer:What would you like to talk about?
ale:Pleasr, from this point on, usr the '?' protocol.
ale:Go Chauvan
Chauvan:Thank's for being here and my personal inspiration to go all-grain... My question taps your metallurgy knowledge.....
Chauvan:....What is the difference between 304 Stainless steel and 316 stainless steel and is there an impact on brewing with one or the other?
jjpalmer:The difference is that 316 has molybdenum in it and has higher resistance to stress corrosion cracking in aqueous environments than 304. Otherwise nearly the same.
Chauvan:cool. thanks.
jjpalmer:There is no real useful differnece for brewing unless this is a full time immersion sort of thing.
jjpalmer:go athobo
ATHOBO:why is it better to steep your specialty grains in only 2 - 2 1.2 gals of water at 155 rathr than the 6 I will start with on my extract brew.
BlueDevil0206:i was next (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/wink.gif)
ATHOBO:the wizard in BYO says it makes the brew too bitter and stingent tasteing
jjpalmer:Well, this is a best practive sort of guideline. you want to minimize the already low risk for tannin extraction
jjpalmer:and so you keep the steeping ratio similar to that of mashing just ot be on the safe side. Depends on your water and your grainbill really. see chapter 15
jjpalmer:Go Blue
BlueDevil0206:when I go to TIG my coupling into my Sanke keg, is backgassing the inside of the keg with argon absolutely necessary
jjpalmer:It helps. I believe it is usually NOT done, and then you just have to use a scrubby and cleanser to clean up the heat tint to prevent rusting.
BlueDevil0206:i mean, it may make it look prettier but 15 gallons of water will not produce enough pressure that you really need the strength
BlueDevil0206:what chemical will clean it up?
jjpalmer:Backgassing just protects the backside from oxidizing, it doesn't add strength
jjpalmer:NaOH is not effective. It is a base not an acid.
BlueDevil0206:it doesn't add strength, but the oxidation can make it brittle and potentially not as strong no?
BlueDevil0206:ok gotcha
jjpalmer:The stainless steel kitchen cleansers containing oxalic acid or Nitric Acid
jjpalmer:Nitric acid is dangerous and is really not much more effective than oxalic in this case.
jjpalmer:Paulcav go
paulcav:Regarding making your own grain mill, do you have to use stainless steel for the rollers or will mild steel do just as well?
jjpalmer:Mild steel works just as well, you just need to brush them off between uses with a toothbrush and adding alitte vegatable oil also helps form a patina to prevent corrosion after the summer when not in use.
paulcav:great, thanks for the info
ale:Go Shastaof guys waiting.
Beershasta:What are the effects of wort on brass. I have read opinions that say that no brass should come into contact with wort in the fermenter. My homemade conical has a brass nut and nipple on the interior bulkhead fitting....END
jjpalmer:Brass is okay. reason comming...
jjpalmer:Brass is fairly inert to wort or vice versa. it is when there is oxygen present that the brass will corrode in that pH, but without the co2 or o2, the brass is inert.
jjpalmer:I wouldnt leave to to condition with brass but the short time of primary is not a problem.
Beershasta:So a newlt oxygenated wort is ok?
Beershasta:Thanks John!
ale:Go Shasta
Beershasta:I just did
Ted:20 min mash: What flavors do you think you develop when doing a normal length mash, as opposed to a 15-20 min mash?
jjpalmer:Not so much flavors as the sugar profile - the degree of fermenatibility
Ted:how's that?
jjpalmer:A short mash time at a beta favoring temperature like 150 would probably produce the right degree of finish like 1.012 but it is hard to say without specifiying a grain bill...
jjpalmer:The commercial brewers that use a 20 minute mash are figuring on a high adjunct high Diastatic power pale malt mash, they have optimised the time and mash temperature to give them the best bang for their schedule, we have different priorities... s
Thomas:invy my bitch
jjpalmer:so we would not necessarily want to mash for just twenty minutes at some temperature, it depends on what we are trying to brew.
Ted:but they make all brews with 15 min mash?
jjpalmer:Well, define "they"
Ted:the ones that use that mash
Ted:at least the few that I know of
jjpalmer:If it is Coors, then then yes they do that short mash because that is all they need to make Coors.
Ted:not who I was thinking of though
jjpalmer:Who then?
invalid:Jeg har bajer i mig hive efter vejret!
Ted:Two Brothers here in Illinois is who I'm thinking of
Ted:there are others but can't recall who
jjpalmer:Oh, well, I don't know anything about them or their beers, so it is hard to speculate.
Ted:yes, it would be hard to speculate, thanks
ale:Go Oldfart
Oldfart:We need guidance about using conical fermenters. Are you up for writing this? Or who might?
jjpalmer:My final thought are that Yes, a 20 minute mash will work if you have all your ducks lined up.
jjpalmer:Conicals - No, I have never used one myself. Sorry.
ale:Go blktre
jjpalmer:Jim Busch is probably the best person I can think of.... Or the guys at More Beer...
blktre:Im a batch sparger and dont worry about PH. I use RO water, sometimes treated, sometimes not. Is PH a concern when batch sparging? END
jjpalmer:Batch Sparging - No, usually with batch sparging the second runnings are 1.015 or greater, depending on how much grain you used to start with, and at that gravity, Malting and brewing science says that the pH doesnt rise yet.
jjpalmer:It helps if you have chosen a water residual alkalinity and grain bill that are compatible though...
blktre:I always have 1.015 left in the mash after i get my preboil volume.i wont worry anymore.thanks...END
ale:Go Chet
Chet:I live in the country and have well water. Untreated, it has a strong metallic odor, and stains everything it contacts quickly. We keep our water softener salt content as low as possible, but what effect can this softened water have on allgrain brewing?
invalid:they have computers in the country?
Chet:yes - but not cable tv!
jjpalmer:Well, it is probably taking out your calcium and magnesium beside the iron and manganese, so your wort may be nutrient deficient for calcium. You should get it tested to know your numbers before and after softening.
ale:Go Chauvan
Chauvan:John, when you're brewing for yourself, what do you prefer to brew?
zymot:what about chet using a filter?
jjpalmer:I brew Porters for wintertime and CAPs, American Wheats, and Bitters for year round.
Chauvan:nod. cool.
jjpalmer:Btw, I am available til 9:30
ale:Interject - zymot had a good followup question.
paulcav:cool, thats 2.30am in the UK :-0
jjpalmer:Go zymot
zymot:What about chet using a filter on his well water?
jjpalmer:Ah! Carbon filters wont help a whole lot for iron/metallic flavors. For iron you need a green sand filter (which I don't know much at all about).
jjpalmer:Sorry, not much help there...
ale:Go Invalid
Chet:I'll google green sand filters - it is a step in the right direction - thanks john/zymot
invalid:which type of sparge do you advocate the most: fly sparge, batch sparge, or no sparge at all? why?
jjpalmer:I advocate batch because it is a good comprimise between time and money for grain. I started with continuous, and used to pride myself on 32 ppg extraction, and then realized that I was wasting an hour or more of my time.
jjpalmer:No Sparge is good, but I hate to leave that much fermentable behind, and I don't have a use for big beer/small beer type brewing (personally).
invalid:follow up:
ale:Go Invalid
invalid:how much time should one spend batch sparging?
jjpalmer:However long it takes to drain your tun, add more sparge water, stir, let sit for 5 minutes to leach out more sugars, recirculate to clear, and drain again. Half hour or so...
invalid:thank you
ale:Go Shasta
Beershasta:On a personal note...What made you decide to put your book on the net for everyone to see free of charge? Personaly, I think it's damn good of you. Was always a plan or someone approached you about it. Also, will you continue this with future books? END
jjpalmer:What happened was that I started the book in 95, waited for it to be editted (a year) rewrote a couple chapters, waited another year, got back a full edit that was horrific, the person did not know beer technically and had taken out the qualifiers and conte
jjpalmer:and contextual details. And then they went out of business. I got my friend Glen Tinseth to do the editiing for me and that took almost two more years, and then decided that self publisihng was a pain.
JDonovan:and then I told him to publish the damn thing!!!
jjpalmer:So, I called up Real Beer Page and said Hey, want a book, and they siad Sure! So we put it online
Beershasta:Wow, so I guess with that long drawn out work, another dosen't sound very good?
jjpalmer:And then, my wife said, "What, 5 years of ignoring the children and you arent' going to make any money off of it!? So then I decided to self publish
jjpalmer:Plus, everyone that reads it online usually wants a paper copy eventually, so I figure it is the best advertizing....
jjpalmer:I am working on one now called How To Brew With Kits
zymot:? I trust my municpal water to be (enough) germ free, but I do not want the chlorine (or other chlorine-like chems) The process of boiling, cooling seems waste of time and creates a window for infection. What alternatives do you like?
ale:Go blktre
blktre:After doughing in, and missing mash temps to high, is it better to mash higher and work on those enzymes (157-158 degrees) instead of adding cool water to reach my desired temp. and enzymes of 150 degree range
Beershasta:Or "How to finsh the fench before my wife gets mad"! Thank you!
jjpalmer:For chlorine in the water, use a carbon filter from Home Depot. Its fast and easy
Chauvan:ahem... I believe Eimajz was somewhere in that que....
Eimajz:Preace Chauvan: What is your best method of cooling your wort down? Which do you prefer the best? Have you found anything reliable for chilling? END
jjpalmer:You can cool the mash down to a more desired temp if you do it soon, the enzymes don't denature instantly.
jjpalmer:For Chilling you mean?
Eimajz:Immersion chiller here in the personally SUX..
Eimajz:South.. oops
blktre:I did this once, cooled it and missed my FG by 5 points, thought this would contribute to it after areating a pitching hi cell counts.thanks..
jjpalmer:I use an Immersion chiller mostly. I use 50 feet of tubing wrapped in a double coil.
Eimajz:double coil..expand shortly please
jjpalmer:I have recirculated ice water thru it using a pump to cool lager worts down to 45 degrees.
jjpalmer:An inner coil that is about 6 inches diameter, then a outer coil that is 10 inches diameter so that the whole thing is about 10 inches wide and a foot tall.
jikastew:ale, my question is withdrawn
jjpalmer:I also have one of Blickman's Therminators, but I haven't brewed with it yet.
Eimajz:Please inform the board of this when you do.. I am curious of what 200 dollars will get you.
jjpalmer:I will post when I have had a chance to use it.
blktre:Wed be interested in your thoughts on theTherminator after you use it
ale:Go Yajsmith
yajsmith:John, is it true that you get more hop bitterness from the bittering addition using a CFC vs an immersion chiller due to the addtional time the hops spend in the hot wort from beginning to end?
Eimajz:Thank You.. END
jjpalmer:Currently, I have done corrosion tests on it using Straight A/PBW and Starsan and had no real affects. The Starsan cleaned it up nicely.
jjpalmer:Hops response coming...
Thomas:*slap* *whip*
Kellermeister:Anybody have any favorite pilsner hops?
jjpalmer:I dont believe there is a significant difference due to the wort being hot for another 10 minutes post boil with the heat off. Not much more isomerization is occuring due to lack of boiling.
yajsmith:Thanks, John
ale:John has stated earlier that he will only be available until 9:30. I'm cutting off questions in two minutes....
ale:Go Zymost
Beershasta:Thanks for visiting John, I'm out.
zymot:? withdrawn
jjpalmer:Is this thing on? (tap tap)
ale:Go Ted
Chauvan:pssst, Ted left. I think it was bob.
BobH:Jonn what is your thoughts on partial boils being dumped directly on store bought Ice to cool and bring up the volume at the same time.
jjpalmer:Store bought Ice has no guarentee of being sanitized.
jjpalmer:There are lots of dormant, wort spoiling bacteria in many water supplies or potentially dormant in the freezers, so I would not recommend doing that.
BobH:Ok thanks
ale:Go Oldfart
Oldfart:Scratches in plastic fermenters -- REALLY a problem??
jjpalmer:No, probably not, the scratches COULD be a problem so to be on the safe side, everyone says to avoid them...
jjpalmer:Dirty scratches are a definite Yes...
BlueDevil0206:as in you used your garden spade to scrape the krausen ring of your conical OF
ale:John, do you have time for one more question?
ale:Go blktre
blktre:Mash pads.....should we be worried about these as not being food grade safe as rumor has it?...They are made from 3M i do believe.
huleoo:Great ?
Chauvan:yup huleoo, I have my eye on a buffer pad at Home Depot. (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/wink.gif)
jjpalmer:Agh! A 3M product I don't know about?! Eek! Are they just scrubbys or more?
paulcav:I gotta go guys, work in a few hours. Thanks for chatting with us tonight John, look forward to the next one :-)
jjpalmer:(I work for 3M R&D as my day job)
blktre:white floor buffing pads is what ive heard they are
jjpalmer:You are very welcome!
blktre:Thanks.take care
paulcav:bye all
jjpalmer:Hmmm, I will have to check and see what the materials are. I will report back this week, say by Thursday.
Chauvan:? for ale
ale:The Mash Pads are mde out of the same material (nylon) as hop bags and fruit bags.
blktre:Thanks John on that mash pad thing, i use one and of course by from Ale of course,,,,,thanks again.END
Chauvan:nevermind ale.
jjpalmer:Oh! I am getting behind the times I guess. Do you have a part number perhaps? I will do my best to find out definitively.
Chauvan:I think HBA is the only guys who carry them.
blktre:ALE sells them here at HBA!!
jjpalmer:Any more questions??
Eimajz:What is the safe temp for pitching yeast? I heard different temps
BlueDevil0206:there's a guy that lives near my appartment whose dad is CEO (or something else really big) for 3M, yeah, he paid to have his Aston Martin Vanquish sent from Hong Kong to Durham this year
BlueDevil0206:so sad (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/smile.gif)
jjpalmer:Yeast pitching - I think you should pitch at your fermentation temperature. You can pitch colder, and you can pitch warmer and let the batch cool down to pitching temp but with the latter you run the risk of producing more diacetyl than you want.
Bacchusbill:Will we new brewers have to wait a couple of more years until your new kit brewing book comes out?
jjpalmer:New book - yes, writing is a slow process.... sorry.
invalid:you don't have to apologize (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/wink.gif)
jjpalmer:Did you have aquestion?
ale:Go, BobH -last question for Mr. Palmer....
BobH:What harm is there doing a very corse dirty sparge. Letting all of the small particles ect in the wort.
Bacchusbill:No, that was it. Guess I will have to step up to AG and reread your old on.
ale:....We all owe him a round of applause.
jjpalmer:Starch haze, protein/polyphenol haze in the beer mainly.
BobH:mostly haze and no taste
BobH:thanks John
BobH:I feel better now
jjpalmer:Thank you all very much for this opportunity, I really enjoy these Chats! Thanks Ale for asking me!
Oldfart:Many thanks!!
stangbat:Thanks John. Love the book.
Bacchusbill:Thanks John!!
Kellermeister:TU very much!
huleoo:thanks john!!
Chauvan:Thanks John!
Eimajz:THanks keep us updated on the Therminator
BobH:Thank you John
blktre:Yes, thanks you. Your knowledge is welcome .cheers...............
jjpalmer:My wife informs my that my last ten minutes is up. Cheers!
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