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> The Impatient Man's Lambic-ish Framboise, Or: "A Cheater's Framboise."
TimothyT
post Feb 11 2005, 12:15 AM
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DISCLAIMER
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Herewith are the instructions for my Framboise, of sorts. Before I start, I would like to make some statements: If you are Belgian, I apologize for any offense to your nation. If you are a harumpfing brewing purist, I apologize for any offense to your sensibilities. If you want something authentic, pass this by; don't sully your pre-existing understanding of brewing by even considering it. Far be it from me to shake the foundations of your assumptions.

All I can say, is that this is good; and a very, very serviceable mimic of a sweet framboise. You can not add the lactose if you do not want it sweet (I tasted it before I put it in) and you get a very, very dry and tart brew.

The intent was to create something with the striking tartness, and the odd "what the hell is that" flavors of a Belgian beer without possibly contaminating my entire home brewery with lacto-bugs. The intent, also, and perhaps more importantly, was not to wait a year to drink it. I am impatient that way. So, you will notice some odd additions to the grain bill, which are just to add trace flavors which are "unplaceable." It worked.

This involves a sour-mash, as well, which I learned a bit about from Papazian's book, but also altered. I did not sour the mash, but I soured the runoff. I also did not pitch the grain into it at 130-140, but tossed it in at 120 degrees. This is a process which should not be left unattended after the first 12 hours of souring. I mention it in the recipe (and, in a sour-mash thread a while back) but it changes remarkably fast in the hours after 12 have gone by--exponentially, I think.

Lastly, I know it is not a Lambic-with-a-capital-L (esp. with my Yeast choice).. but it is lambic-ish. And, if you think that product is more important than process, perhaps it is a Lambic after all. IF it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck... etc. Don't knock it until you try it. Who knows. Maybe the brewing gods smiled on me. Maybe I just got lucky. But maybe, just maybe, you could get lucky too.

I know the instructions below might be a little extensive/simplistic for more experienced brewers, but I thought I should be as methodical and clear as I could be. Feel free to ask me any questions.

And, of course, I would be interested in any comments from the geniuses on the board, as well.

-TT


Without further ado, I present:



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....THE IMPATIENT MAN'S LAMBIC-ISH FRAMBOISE....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Or ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

........................... "A Cheater's Framboise" ........................

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(Calculations are for 5.5 gallons, assuming .5 gallons lost to trub in the kettle, etc. I boiled 5.5 gal's and topped off to remake volume before chilling)


GRAINS

Mash:

7.5 lb British two-row
0.6 lb Crystal 20L
0.6 lb Crystal 40L
0.6 lb British crystal 50-60L
0.25 lb CaraPils
1 oz Black Patent
1 oz Roasted Barley
1/2 oz Smoked Malt

(Gravity at this point is 1.044)

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SOURING THE WORT

Add 1/2 lb crushed (but unmashed) 2-Row malt to the wort/runnings once it has cooled to 120 degrees F

Let it sit for 15-24 hours, insulated with a blanket.

Important:

Keep close tabs on it in the hours after 12. As with all things bacterial, and fungal, I think the activity was exponential. It soured a LOT in the last few hours. Keep an eye on it when doing this, esp. in the later hours and don't "assume" a certain amount time will be right. Ii got very very sour in the last 3 hours, when it had seemingly not soured at all (at least to taste) in the first 12 hours).

Also:

Pitch in the ground unmashed grains at about 120 degrees into the wort, not 130, as Papazian mentions. The higher temp seems to pasteurize or shock the stinky lactobacillus / pedococcus / diaperbacillus bugs. 110-120 works fine.

Also:

I kept the wort in my kettle as it was souring. I did not want to possibly infect anything in my brew-works with the lacto-bugs. I figured the boil would eventually kill everything in the kettle off.

Oh:

It will taste absolutely awful when it is done souring: sour, and "funky/moldy"



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THE BOIL

Skim any gunk that has formed on top of the wort. Then pour the wort off of the crud (from the unmashed grains) at bottom of whatever vessel you soured it in, and put back in your kettle.

Bring the Wort to a boil.

(Total boil time is 90 minutes)


Boil for 30 minutes. It will stink like hell for the first 30 minutes of the boil...

At 30 minutes into the boil


HOPS

60 Minutes: 0.25 oz Stale Cascade hops 5.3%* (plug)

30 Minutes: 0.25 oz Stale Cascade hops 5.3%* (plug)

* These were old and very stale, so they had little or no bittering properties-- so the AA's there are probably not realistic AT ALL. I recently read you could do that to your hops by drying them out in a low oven for a while

15 minutes:

Add to the boil 1lb Wheat DME

(Recipe gravity before wheat: 44. With Wheat Extract 51.)


Whirlfloc @ 10 minutes.

Flameout.


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PRIMARY FERMENTATION

Top off with water to reach 5.5 gallons, Cool, and rack into primary fermenter.

Pitch a healthy starter of American Ale Yeast 2 (Wyeast # 1272), and wait for hell to break loose. This one ferments wildly, and with the wheat dme, a blowoff tube is an absolute necessity.

A note on my yeast choice: I chose this because of its description: "Fruitier and more flocculant than 1056, slightly nutty, soft, clean, slightly tart finish." Fruity and tart is what I was looking for, along with the "unplaceable" nuttiness. I also wanted a kick-butt strong-fermenting yeast with good attenuation. All seemed to fit the bill with 1272. I fermented at the top of it's range (72 degrees) to accentuate the fruity aspects of it. I am sure you could use a Belgian yeast if you wanted to, but the reason I used this one is because of the impatience.


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SECONDARY FERMENTATION (& the Framboise part)



When primary fermentation is pretty much done (5 days or so), rack the wort into a 6.5 gal secondary (transferring some of the highly flocculant yeast), on top of:

8-9 lbs of Raspberries

I used frozen raspberries which were added to a pint of water (to prevent scorching/pectin setting on the stove), and pasteurized at 140 degrees for 25 mins and then cooled.

Now wait for hell to REALLY break loose. Attach a blowoff tube. Trust me.

When fermentation settles down, add pectic enzyme (at slightly higher doses than normal because of the alcohol content of the fermenter).


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TERTIARY FERMENTATION


Rack (avoiding the raspberry gunk) to a Tertiary fermenter to clear when secondary is done.

(OPTIONAL: Depending on how sweet you want this to be, add up to 3 lbs (yes, 3 lbs) Lactose (boiled in enough water to dissolve it). I added most of it, but if you want something very dry, add none. It will be very, very dry, eventually.)

Let settle/ferment/condition/clarify/whatever for about 2 weeks. For some reason, despite gravity readings being steady, I still got bubbling in my pipe. When I tasted it, it had a lot of CO2 in solution, which I think is what is bubbling).

My final gravity was in the neighborhood of 1.010-1.012

Bottle with a healthy dose of carbonation (more than normal; suggest 5 oz corn sugar or, in my case, 3/4 cup honey).


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It tasted great going into the bottles; very complex, the touches of black patent and roast barley, undoubtedly the horrible-smelling sour-mash, and probably the stale flavor hops, give it the "what's that flavor?" tastes I get with a lambic. The one flavor which I notice in lambics that is less pronounced (but not altogether absent) in this invention is the "soapy" flavor, which I actually don't miss.

I haven't gotten it carbonated yet, but I will report in when I try one.

There you have it & apologies to the purists.

Respectfully submitted,

--TT

This post has been edited by TimothyT: Feb 11 2005, 12:43 AM
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Beer Engineer
post Feb 11 2005, 12:18 AM
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That looks too complicated... (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/sorry.gif)
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TimothyT
post Feb 11 2005, 12:22 AM
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Sorry to overwhelm (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/smile.gif) .

I added all the instructions, which are mostly pretty basic. Nothing about this was difficult, or even complicated. If you wrote out exactly what you do when making a normal beer it would be the same, minus two steps (the souring and the raspberry additions). I just wanted to be as clear as possible, as it is not quite like making a normal beer.

--TT
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Crutch
post Feb 11 2005, 08:16 AM
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I may just have to try this one (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/smile.gif) I'm sure it will be a hit with the ladies... I actually enjoy Lindemann's Framboise, it just doesn't taste like beer (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/hehe.gif)

I've only used fruit in a beer once, and it was oregon puree. Did you crush the raspberries before adding them to the fermenter? How similar did the color end up being to Lindemann's?

This post has been edited by Crutch: Feb 11 2005, 08:17 AM
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TimothyT
post Feb 11 2005, 10:53 AM
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The color is deep-reddish purple; it definitely is raspberry colored! Pretty close (if I recall correctly) to Lindemann's.

If you want all that sweetness, you will have to add the lactose (at the high end of the range). Basically 1lb cuts the astringency and raspberry bitterness (they have a bitterness along with their sweetness), a little. 2 lbs noticeably, and 3 lbs you get the more striking sweetness to go with the tartness.

I use frozen raspberries; I added a pint of water to a pot (to prevent scorching), brought it to about 180 degrees, dropped in a pound or two, and stirred with a whisk until broken up/and liquefied. I then added the other raspberries about a pound at a time, and eventually brought the whole mixture to about 140-145, and kept it there for 25 minutes to kill most anything that was on the raspberries (which would be little anyway, considering they were frozen). I think you could do it a little hotter, but not much, as you do not want to "set" the pectin. When adding pectic enzyme to the secondary, you have to (as noted) add a little extra, as the efficacy of it is reduced due to the alcohol (or so I think I read in a post by high-test in the cider forum). Pectic enzyme has a "tang" to it, which is one of the things that you want to settle out in the tertiary.

A very satisfying recipe indeed!

-TT
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TimothyT
post Feb 15 2005, 10:30 AM
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I tasted an early bottle (it is not yet completely carbonated, but quite fizzy already), and it tastes great! I had no idea that one could get as close to a lambic as I did in such little time. If you have the urge to try it, you will not be disappointed, nor will those around you who like a Framboise. Again, I added the lactose to this one (3lb) to mimic a Lindemann's for the gf, but it is much, MUCH better. Smoother, just as tart, and with the complexity of a Lambic (a real one, not Lindemann's): pronounced tartness, and "barnyard" tastes with somewhat less accentuation of the "soapy" flavors. I think I could sour the mash a little longer next time to get even more Lambic-ish characteristics.

And... you can't beat 5 weeks.

Wow. I will definitely be doing this again, and perhaps trying a different fruit.

Happy to answer any questions.

--TT
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hiddendragonet
post Feb 15 2005, 03:50 PM
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Why are you calling this Lambic-ish? What makes this not a real lambic? Is it because you did not use the Lambic yeast? My understanding was this yeast merely contained the bacteria strain used to produce sour mash in addition to yeast- in other words, cheating the sour mash and producing a Lambic-ish beer.

It sounded to me like your method was how Lambics are actually made, and the Lambic yeast was made for cheaters. (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/smile.gif)
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TimothyT
post Feb 15 2005, 04:57 PM
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Thanks for the vote of confidence!

I think it is a technicality, personally, when the souring gets done. The garbage-y flavors of the sourmash boil off (probably mimicking the long, long, long time it takes a lambic to ferment and... er... rot. (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/wink.gif)

I suppose I could have used a Belgian ale yeast, instead, but I really like my Wyeast American Ale2; it gets the job done like gangbusters, and produces lots of fruity flavors when fermented, as I said, at the high end of the range.

The real benefit that I see (aside from the time concern, which is a biggie for me), is that there is no, nada, zip chance of getting a persistent lacto or pedo infection in one's brew-works from this "method."

--TT
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TimothyT
post Feb 20 2005, 11:35 PM
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Just an update for any who are curious.

I had one last night, and it is fully carbonated, and very fizzy (I used about 3/4 cup of honey to prime it). It is also excellent. (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/blush.gif)

It is significantly drier than before, with still some lurking sweetness. If you want something as sweet as a Lindemann's you might have to add even more lactose... like up to 5 lbs! (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/wow.gif)

Anyway, I will be doing this again once supplies run low. I might try it with even more crystal as well, to begin with; just to up the unfermentable sugars, without resorting to lactose, which I would prefer not to do in the future.

--TT
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Andrew
post Apr 5 2005, 10:46 PM
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I am definitely going to try this! Just curious, why didn't you use some lambic yeast/bacteria from say, wyeast's lambic blend? It seems like you woudn't be sure what kind of bacteria infected your beer, could be something that tastes aweful.
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TimothyT
post Apr 5 2005, 11:34 PM
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QUOTE(abehesni @ Apr 5 2005, 10:47 PM)
I am definitely going to try this! Just curious, why didn't you use some lambic yeast/bacteria from say, wyeast's lambic blend?


I was impatient, and did not want to let it sit for a year. (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/smile.gif) I suppose I could have used a belgian ale yeast, but I didn't know what that would do on top of the "sour mash," so I stuck with AA2 which ferments fruity at the top of its temp range.

QUOTE
It seems like you woudn't be sure what kind of bacteria infected your beer, could be something that tastes aweful.


You can be dang sure that the lactobacillus on the grain gets the upper hand in the first 18 hours or so of "souring." Especially if kept at about 100-110 degrees when tossing in the unmashed grain. I think some pedococcus (sp?) get in there as well, considering the "awful" taste of the stuff before I brewed was not just sour, but funky-smelling too. They are all killed in the long boil.

The major thing is that I didn't want to infect my brewery (such as it is) with lacto bugs. This recipe avoids it.

Let me know if you have any other questions. I had one the other night. It really is astonishingly good.

---TT

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Andrew
post Apr 5 2005, 11:40 PM
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I tottaly forgot that the grain has the lactobacillus on it! I was thinking you were exepcting the air to bring the bacteria. I will be trying this in 2 weeks after i finish my exams. Thanks for being so helpful and posting this recipe with all thoes extra details, i'm sure they're going to help. Much appreciated!

Andrew
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TimothyT
post Apr 5 2005, 11:51 PM
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Thanks.

Trust me on the blowoff tube when you rack onto the raspberries. (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/wink.gif)

Make sure you rack a pile of yeast into the secondary as well. AA2 is a very quick and dense flocculator, and you will see a clear line between yeast and trub in the primary. Get plenty of this, as you want a good population of it to take on all the sugar in the 9 lbs of raspberries. Make sure your secondary is a 6.5 gal. The primary can be done in a normal 5 gal.

--TT

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Andrew
post Apr 5 2005, 11:54 PM
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Sounds good, I'll make note of that. One more question, since you're innoculating with the grain, during the souring did you leave the kettle covered with the lid or did you leave it open to the air for the 15-24hrs?
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TimothyT
post Apr 6 2005, 01:18 AM
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I covered it and wrapped it with a blanket or two to insulate it. It stayed pretty close to 110 for the whole 18 hours or so. Remember to test it frequently during the last few hours... the change happened fast for me. Trust me... you will know it when it is happening.

--TT
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