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> Chat Transcripts - Dr. Chris White returns, president of White Labs
kroyster
post Feb 17 2005, 08:21 PM
Post #1


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QUOTE
This week's chat will feature return guest Chris White, president of White Labs. Chris will be available on Sunday to discuss any questions concerning yeast and it's role in fermented beverages. He can also field questions about Servomyces, the new miracle yeast nutrient. Dr. White has a PHD in Biochemistry from UCD - San Diego and now teaches there. Please keep things orderly for Dr. White and follow the "?" protocol.

ale: Folks, our guest has joined us....
HighTest: Welcome
ineedacatscan: that's nice he joins the chat to see two unhappy faces
ineedacatscan: thanks for coming out
cj_in_j: Not directed at him, definitely!!!
cj_in_j: (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/smile.gif)
cj_in_j: How's that? (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/wink.gif)
cwhite: thanks, nice to be here
ineedacatscan: HAHAHA (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/biggrin.gif)
ale: ...please use the '?' protocol to keep things orderly. (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/biggrin.gif)
cj_in_j: So, are we starting already? Or should we wait till 10:00 am Tokyo time?
HighTest: *)
ale: Well, let's banter around a bit. It's 7:55 by my clock.
ineedacatscan: i wouldn't want anyone to miss something important
cj_in_j: Yeah, but don't those of us who came early deserve a bit of a "treat"? (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/tongue.gif)
ineedacatscan: free samples all around!!!!!!
huleoo: woohoo!! (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/smile.gif)
Beershasta: Welcome Chris! Glad to have you back. Thank you for you time in advance.
cj_in_j: Anyone's welcome to have a hit off my Diet Coke, if they want.
ineedacatscan: i'll be over in a second
kernel_panic: diet???
ineedacatscan: have to offset the beer calories
cj_in_j: Always diet -- I'd get fat(ter) otherwise.
kernel_panic: heh, s'all good
cj_in_j: catscan got it!
Dan_~D~: Did I miss the Fire Side Chat?
cj_in_j: No, we're starting in a couple minutes.
kernel_panic: i think its 8:00!
cj_in_j: Not by ale's watch, and he's the only one who counts.
cj_in_j: (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/tongue.gif)
kernel_panic: :?
Bosco: *choochoo*
cj_in_j: panic -- it's not down there, it's up here!
kernel_panic: hahah
Aeneas: ?
cj_in_j: Testing -- I lost my screen.
huleoo: Happy bday Ale!
ale: OK, brewers...8:00...please use the '?' protocol for Dr. White to keep things orderly.
ale: Thank You.
ale: Go Aeneas
Aeneas: Dr. White, can you explain the importance of zinc in fermentation, we have been told to avoid galvanized metals for years due to the zinc content, but now the Serrvomyces product seems to provide a new zinc source during fermentation?
cwhite: zinc is important, but you can get too much. however, most brewing is done with too little zinc.
cj_in_j: ?
cwhite: It is a good trick for consultants, to add zinc to a fermenation and see improved results.
Beershasta: ?
cwhite: By adding zinc, you usually get faster fermentation and better attenuation. It doesn't always work, because sometimes you have the right amount of zinc. end
ale: Go CJ in J
cj_in_j: Can you explain about the Platinum strains? Why not just offer them all year round?
cwhite: We already produce about twice as many strains on a weekly bases as the regular strains, due to private strains for breweries and other stuff.
cwhite: So we use the Platinum series as a way to add a couple of different strains on a monthly basis.
cwhite: For this year, we did make 099, super higher gravity yeast, a year round strain. end
cj_in_j: Can they be ordered at other times? Or only those months?
ale: Go CWhite
cwhite: Yes, stores can order any of the strains with a minimum 40 vials, and that is not too uncomon. end
ale: Go Beershasta
Big_Harry_Deehl: ?
Beershasta: Dr. White, I brewed a Munich ESB todayand got a wild hair and belnded 026 (premium bitter) and 833 (german bock). I'm halfing the fermentation temps to ferment at 61F. What can I expect from this? Will one strain be dominant or will they both contribute?
ipaguy: ?
Jimvy: ?
Beershasta: Sorry for my typos
cwhite: They will both contribute, it will be a nice steam beer, more on the ale side. Should be good. end
dgonzalez: ?
Beershasta: Should I have a long secondary (lager style)?
ale: Go Big_Harry_Deehl
cwhite: Yes, more than an ale, should age 2-3 weeks, you will get some sulfur from 833. end
Beershasta: Thank you
Big_Harry_Deehl: Concerning Starters : [/color]Ale yeasts roughly double in population every 1.6 to 2 hrs at 86*f, why do starters not have TONS of yeast in them
ineedacatscan: ?
cwhite: There usually is not that much yeast growth in starters, depending on what you start from.
cwhite: If you start with a small amount of yeast, keep them on oxygen, and low sugar, you can get that kind of doubling.
cwhite: But in most starters you only get 2-4 fold growth.
twocents: hmm
twocents: someone glue his seat
twocents: too late
cwhite: For example, from one of our vials, if you add to a pint, there is not enough sugar for the yeast, so they only go to one doubling. end
ale: Go ipaguy
Big_Harry_Deehl: Thanks
ipaguy: Can you give us any hints which Pacific Northwest brewery uses the soon-to-be released Pacific Ale WLP041?
Bosco: lol @ Dan
twocents: oy
Spectre: ?
cwhite: It is a strong fermenter, breweries like that, but it can produce a little diacetyl, so I recomend 48 hours post fermentation diacetyl rest. end
cj_in_j: At what temp?
ale: Go Jimvy
Jimvy: For a big beer, how would you suggest a combination of say English Ale and the High Gravity Yeast strain? Put the yeast in together, or start with Burton and add the High Grav mid-way thru fermentation or something else?
cwhite: That's a tough one to describe. I'll try. You can add the yeast either way, but I like to in the beginning.
cwhite: The more important part is to keep the sugar low, not going over 1.080. You start there, and add sugar every 24-48 hours, keeping the yeast in log phase growth.
Aeneas: someone should shoot Listermann's cat!
cwhite: It can be difficult to determine your final beer alcohol, but if you trying to go over 15%, it is the best way. You also want to add more yeast every week, make sure the yeast is active when you add it. I'll be happy to answer more questions on this. end
twocents: aggggh
ale: Go DGonzales
dgonzalez: how many generations would you suggest for your hefe strain (i forgot your code number)? and why? i've been under the impression of about 4 times due to a sulphur buildup. is this correct?
cwhite: Not really due to sulfur, but there is so much yeast character in a hefe, that small changes in the yeast produce different beers.
cwhite: Some pro brewies only go 1 generation, some do 3-4, but it is rare to go more than that.
cwhite: The yeast also gets more flocculent as it is collected from the bottom, usually not desired. end
dgonzalez: thanks
ale: Go ineed a catscan
ineedacatscan: I apologize for what is probably a rookie question. Is there such a thing as too much yeast? i.e. is there an ideal ratio of yeast:wort
ale: Excellant question!!!
cwhite: Yes, there can be, but that is usually only a problem when repitching.
Beershasta: ?
cwhite: If too much yeast is added, the yeast will not grow as well, leading to more older yeast at the end of fermentation, and more dead cells.
cj_in_j: ?
GSchmidt: ?
cwhite: This is one reason yeast quality can deteriorate over generations.
dgonzalez: ?
cwhite: But when homebrewing, this is usually not a problem, b/c we aren't going that many generations.
cwhite: The bigger problem is usually not getting the fermentation to start fast enough. end
ineedacatscan: thanks
ale: Go Spectre
Spectre: I assume 099 is used for Barleywines and Braggots. What is the expected ABV that this yeast will tolerate?
ale: ?
cwhite: We can get it to 24% in the lab, but that is really hard to do. 15%-18% is the norm. end
Spectre: Thanks
ale: Go CJ
cj_in_j: Getting back to Servo, there's a lot of conflicing info -- use it in a starter, one capsule for 5 gallons, one capsule is enough for 20 gallons, only use it for 1st-generation yeast. Can you give us the "real" story on how to use it?
Trapshooter: Just wanted to say I made a starter with the 1028 London yeast and it's taking off. Love your yeast Chris!
cwhite: Sure, each tablet is for 5 gallons. It is good for a starter (gives you more yeast production), but we made the pills for 5 gallons.
cwhite: To see the benifit, you should use each generation. The zinc pool keeps splitting as yeast divide, so there isn't any carry over to following generations. However, strong yeast still perform better in following generations, so some people may feel
cwhite: you only need in certain generations. It should be added the last 5 min. of the boil, the acidic boil helps. end
cj_in_j: Thanks! Great info!!
ale: Go Beershasta
Beershasta: Dr. White. I asked earlier about mixing the Premium Bitter (ale) an Bock (lager)together. If I save this yeast for further batches. Do the strain combine to become one mutated strain or does it continue to be a blended strain?
cwhite: It will actually work well. The %'s change when you collect, for example,it may be 70-30 once you collect, but surprisingly you still see both contributing to the next beer.
cwhite: This is why we have done a few blends for this year, we have 3 available now- an american blend, a belgian blend, and our 10th year anniversary blend. end
ale: Go GSchmidt
GSchmidt: Can yeasts metabolize the sugar alcohols - sorbitol, manitol, xylitol, etc?
cwhite: Yes, they metablilze some of them, and it is strain dependant. end
ale: Go DGonzalez
dgonzalez: what would you recommend as a good ratio of pitching...let's say your 810 san fran lager as an example. please use: [/color]lbs per degree plato for a 10bbl batch size?
cwhite: For ales, 1 pound per bbl is good, for lagers, 2-3. For 810, if your doing a steam beer, 1-1.5 is good, if your using for a true lager, 2-3. end
dgonzalez: thanks
ale: My turn. Dr. White, I've been told that the 099 High Gravity Yeast needs to be 'fed' over a period of time.
ale: ...can you elaborate?
HighTest: ?
cwhite: Start at 1.070-80, let fermetation go 2 days. The gravity should be around 1.050-60.
cwhite: Add more malt, or simple sugar. It is easier when doing high gravity beers to use simple sugar in addtion to malt, but that will vary by brewer. Boil, cool, and add to wort.
dgonzalez: ?
cwhite: Do this again in 1-2 days, after 1-2 weeks, depending on how high your trying to go, you will have enough sugar in the fermentation. The closer you can keep it to 1.050 during fermentation, the higher in alohol you will be able to go, as long as the sugar
cwhite: is fermentable, that is why it is good to use some simple sugar. end
ale: How does one keep track of gravity/alcohol production?
cwhite: We just measure it.
cwhite: But of course that is the hard part for a homebrewer, I think you just have to estimate a theoretical starting gravity, based on how much sugar you use. end
ale: Thanks
ale: Go HighTest
HighTest: In wine making CO2 toxicity is a concern, yet not so much (apparently) in beer making. Would you explain? Is it due to the the relative differences in the %abv between the two beverages?
cj_in_j: ?
cwhite: It is a big problem in brewing, just not mention of it. South African Breweries feel that you don't need nutrients, just CO2 removal.
Listermann: ?
Listermann: ?
cwhite: I think this is one reason homebrewers get more stuck fermentations than pros, their tanks do a better job at removing CO2.
cwhite: I don't like airlocks, I don't think they are needed in primary. I say keep them off and only put on when fermentation starts to slow down. Prior to that, some loose foil is all you need on top. end
HighTest: Thank you
ale: Go DGonzalez
dgonzalez: i think some of the guests might find this topic interesting. can you describe, in simple terms, how a diacetyl rest works? it's benefits? and downfalls of not doing one?
cwhite: yeast make a compoud called acetolactate.
ale: Excellent question, DG.
cwhite: This goes outside the cell, where it is later oxidized to diacetyl.
GSchmidt: ?
cwhite: If yeast are still there and are metobolicly active, they will reabsorb it. If the yeast are removed, or are done, they might not reabsorb the diacetyl.
cwhite: For lagers, you need to raise the temperature to ~65 for 1 week, starting when the beer is about 1.020. If you go much lower then that, the yeast will not be working strong enough to take up the diacetyl.
cwhite: For ales, you only need to go 24-48 hours post terminal gravity, since you are already at ~65 F temperatures. This is why lagers will taste buttery later, you can't taste the precurser, and once you remove the yeast, it will turn into diactyl later.
cwhite: end
dgonzalez: thanks.
ale: Go CJ
cj_in_j: My question was just answered!
cj_in_j: Thanks.
ale: Go Listermann
Listermann: In lager fermentation, I get fruity flavors if I start at high temperatures and cool to finish. I found that starting cool, pitching, allowing to warm until action is noticed and then recooling seems to minimize fruit flavors. Aside from repitching slur
Listermann: ry, what is the best proceedure?
Spectre: ?
cwhite: We do recomend the starting warm and letting cool, as a way to make sure fermentation gets going good. That works for a lot of people, there is not a lot of substrates in the first 10 hours to make esters/fusels.
cwhite: But some brewers have your experience, and prefer to pitch cold.
Tressin: good evening all
cwhite: If you do that, you just need to add yeast above what they would grow at warm temperatures, because they don't grow well at lager temps. They will only divide 2-3 fold, so you need to pitch 2 or 3 x as much in order to get the 5 fold increase of cells at
cwhite: the end of fermentation, and get good diacetyl reduction. 3-5 liter starter for 5 gallons, or 2-3 vials, will do that. end
ale: Go Listermann - 2nd question
Listermann: I make starters for lagers. No second question - slow computer.
ale: Go GSchmidt
GSchmidt: Given what you said earlier about CO2, would you recommend manually degassing as a means to restart a stuck ferment?
cwhite: Yes, shake it. We can usually do that with homebrewing, but if your batch size is bigger, you can rause with CO2. end
ale: Go Spectre
Spectre: When you say you don't like airlocks for primary, what do you suggest for primary in a bucket, cheese cloth over the opening with a rubber band or is a sealed lid with an open airlock good?
Beershasta: Thanks Dr. White!
cwhite: I would not seal the lid, just put loose foil around the sides. You will notice a faster fermentaiton- less CO2 stress. Cheese cloth in the opening is also good. end
Spectre: Ok thanks
dgonzalez: ?
ale: Go DGonzalez
dgonzalez: this is more of a suggestion about airlocks. i agree with Dr. White. i would but a hose into a bucket with an iodophor/water mixture
cj_in_j: ?
cwhite: Good idea, but that can also lead to increased head pressure. Of course, sanitation needs to be the main concern. end
ale: I should mention that my clock reads 9:00, and that Dr. White is officially "off the hook".
ale: Go CJ
cj_in_j: I've heard that German brewers ferment under CO2 pressure because no artificial CO2 can be added. That's kind of opposite what you just said about removing CO2. Can you explain?
cwhite: When making lagers, some head pressure will reduce yeast growth, making cleaner beer, but that only applies when making lagers and you need to be carefull, really watch the fermentation. cw
cwhite: end
cj_in_j: Thanks.
ale: ?
cwhite: Even when under pressure, do not go over 1 bar, 1 psi. end
cwhite: 15 psi is what I meant. end
cj_in_j: Okay, that helps.
Oldfart: ?
ale: Dr. White, why the long lag time from when Servo was available to pro's and not to homebrewers?
cwhite: We've wanted it for a long time, Lallemand Canada produces it, and we were finaly able to get it into a pill that works just the same as the pro powder. We're really happy to have it now. end
ale: Go Oldfart
Jimvy: I've got to run, but Dr. White, great chat tonight. I appreciate you joining us and providing some great info.
Oldfart: I regularly ferment at CO2 pressures up to 20 psi, have had no problems, good, strong ferments. Why no problems with CO2 toxicity??
cwhite: That is real close to toxic levels, 25-30 psi. I guess you have really healthy yeast and strong fermentations going on.
cwhite: end
cwhite: I need to go, thanks for participating. This is the only other chat I've done since the last one with your group, so thanks for making it easy. Happy birthday Ale. Chris
hophead: Very educational Dr. White. You've certainly made an impact on my brewing techniques tonight. Thank you very much!
ineedacatscan: THank you
GSchmidt: thanks
dgonzalez: thank you for your great info Dr. White
huleoo: Thamks!
Aeneas: many thanks cwhite
Oldfart: Many thanks!
Listermann: Thanks and good night for now.
Aeneas: let us all sing happy birthday to ale now!
huleoo: happy birthday to you
ale: A round of applause for Dr. White!! (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/biggrin.gif)
BobH: Thank You Dr. White, lots of food for thought
cj_in_j: Thanks, Chris. We appreciate it!
cj_in_j: Clap clap clap clap clap
BobH: Bravo
kernel_panic: thank ya Dr. white *clap*
BobH: brb going afk
cwhite: thanks everyone! bye
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