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> return guest Greg Noonan by popular demand, author, brewer, pub owner
kroyster
post Aug 30 2005, 05:44 PM
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QUOTE(ale @ Aug 16 2005, 07:48 PM)
Due to popular demand Greg Noonan will be our return guest this Sunday.

Mr. Noonan is the author of "Brewing Lager Beer", "The Seven Barrel Brewery Brewers' Handbook", and "Scotch Ale" from the Classic Beer Style Series. Greg is also the founder of The Vermont Pub and Brewery. I ripped off the following passage from their website;

The Vermont Pub and Brewery opened in November of 1988, but its' history did not begin on that day. For three years, Greg and Nancy Noonan petitioned the Vermont legislature to change the law to allow pub brewing in the the state. The legislation was passed in May of 1988. The Noonans began working to convert a space that has formerly been a prep kitchen, office, and a banquet room into a 14 barrel brewery to service the 175 seat restaurant.

The brewery equipment itself is a compilation of old-fasioned Yankee ingenuity. You see a lot of showpiece breweries nowadays, but a decade ago these off-the-shelf brewies didn't exist. Using a maple sap boiler, a stockyard feeder, and a former commercial ice cream manufacturing vessel, Greg Noonan designed a brewery that has become nationally and internationally known and respected for its' fine ales and lagers. Greg is a well known speaker at national beer conferences and has written numerous articles for various industry publications. He has also acted as a consultant for several brew-pubs and micro breweries regarding start-up and brewery design.

You can visit them at: http://www.vermontbrewery.com/brewtour.htm


lakesidebrewer: Hi Ale. Ready when you follks are. Greg Noonan.
ale: At least an 8
the_stain: Greetings and welcome Mr. Noonan!
Ted: welcome back Greg
lakesidebrewer: Thanks Ted.
ale: Hey Greg. Glad to see you. about two more minutes.
lakesidebrewer: Thanks Ale.
brewmaster808: ale I would have to disagree with that what we get here, Once again not sure why maybe shipping
ale: All - start typing your queries to Mr.Noonan and I'll put you in line.
brewmaster808: I just want to point it out cause it is one of the better choices you get here, at groceries store, but would not rate inort her 8
brewmaster808: ?
ale: Go 808
brewmaster808: why is it I don't see lagee yeast use in IPA's?
gberon: ?
lakesidebrewer: I would feel that I would always want to use an ale yeast because I would want a multi-dimensional flavor - big hops are great, but I want fruitiness and maltiness backing it up. end.
ale: Go gberon
brewmaster808: ?
gberon: Hi Greg, Greg Beron here. I wonder if you could discuss when to add krausen to carbonate a beer. This would be using a corny keg.
twocents: finally
cj_in_j: Are we going yet?
ale: BTW - Mr. Noonan's screen name tonight is lakesidebrewer
brewmaster808: so you saying using lager yeast will limit the fruitness? but wouldn't it increase the maltness
twocents: works for me
lakesidebrewer: Greg I would add it to the corny (or a bottling bucket) just before transferring the conditioned beer in from the secondary, Iso that the krausen gets mixed in well. end.
ale: Go 808
gberon: So, after lagering then. Thanks.
cj_in_j: ?
lakesidebrewer: 808 Running lager yeasts at traditional ale temps (say 72 F) is bound to give the IPA some yeast character, but it would likely include a lot more fusel alcohols than an ale yeast that normally ferments at that temperature would.
the_stain: ?
brewmaster808: no actually meant what if you using act recommen tmeps
lakesidebrewer: I really feel that maltiness is more a function of the grain bill than the yeast type, although some lager yeast are better at emphasizing it than most ale yeasts, but more by omission of flavors that mask maltiness than by really accentuating it.
lakesidebrewer: That said, I really think that IPAs are more about the hops than anything else, so I wouldn't be afraid to brew an IPA with a lager yeast. End.
ale: Go CJ
cj_in_j: I?ve been reading lately about diacetyl rests for ales, ie fermenting in the mid-to-upper 60s, then D-rest at 72F. What do you think?
brewmaster808: totally agreed with grain bill, but just wonder why there not many lager involed with ipa
lakesidebrewer: 808 At normal temps particular lager yeast will carry through more maltiness, but with the big hops, I would tend to add some caramel malt for the maltiness. On the other hand, a Bavarian Helles IPA might be real interesting ! end.
the_stain: remember also what the "A" in "IPA" stands for ;)
twocents: <no comment>
Ted: good
cj_in_j: lol
ale: CJ in J is next in line.
Ted: :D
cj_in_j: Okay, to repeat:[/color] I?ve been reading lately about diacetyl rests for ales, ie fermenting in the mid-to-upper 60s, then D-rest at 72F. What do you think?
lakesidebrewer: re Diacetyl rest, I would say that that if you can readily do the temp ramp up 10 degrees F above ferment temp readily, by all means do so, because it also speeds up conditioning and may knock the Terminal Gravity down a bit more .
cj_in_j: So if ferm is at 65F, go up to 75F??
lakesidebrewer: On the other hand, if you don't actually have a problem with diacetyl, and you can't readily ramp temps, don't worry about it. end.
ale: Followup for CJ?
brewmaster808: thanks very much, will try the Bavarian Helles side of things.Just found it inteeresting why ipa not listed with lager. I really like lager over ale, general speaking.
lakesidebrewer: I'm a huge Pilsner Urquell fan, for the complexity in such a delicate beer, and I wouldn't mind a lager that had another 20 or more IBUS than Pilsner Urquell. Go for it. end.
ale: Go Stain
the_stain: I have been talking and researching a lot about overnight mashing as a time-saver in brewing - specifically a mash that starts at around 156F, goes for 7-8 hours, and ends up (depending on time and insultation) at around 145-148F.
Ted: ?
the_stain: There seem to be mixed opinions on whether this will create a too-fermentable wort or not. My feeling is it won't, because the enzymes are denatured after a couple hours anyway. Do you have any thoughts on this technique at all?
lakesidebrewer: There is no good reason not to overnight mash, and I wouldn't worry about a beer fermenting out too far if you start at 156F - Dr. Michael Lewis has shown that most of amylolosis occurs in the first 5 minutes of the mash.
gberon: ?
lakesidebrewer: The enzymes are pretty well played out after an hour and a half, so not much is going to change beyond that. In fact, at 156F mash-in, I would expect the beer to end up at about 30% of its starting gravity even with an overnight mash.
the_stain: Follow up question, I have heard that a vast majority of beer spoiling organisms actually die in the 140-150 range (meaning lactobacillus) and this is why we start a sour mash by adding more fresh grain.
SudsInSeattle: ?
lakesidebrewer: The risks with an overnight mash are surface growth of contaminants that might affect the flavor, and that risk is pretty small. end.
the_stain: some have suggested that sanitation may be an issue -- oops you just answered my question :)
ale: Go Ted.
Ted: in your book, , you say that using 100% Vienna malt in the Vienna beer recipe would be a drier beer. Is this even if using a decoction mash?
Aeneas: interesting question ted!
lakesidebrewer: Most microorganisms won't survive 120F, and only the thermophilic ones (lacto, pediococcus) can survive up to 140F or above for the time that a mash takes. At least, theoretically... if you have ever let spent mash sit, you know how quickly it sours.
lakesidebrewer: which I have always taken to mean that lactobacillus survived in the mash itself, although that conclusion flies in the face of everything that Pasteur established. end.
ale: Go Gberon.
Ted: never answered my question
Ted: ale, *slap*
ale: Comment, I know - against my own rules - Mr. Noonan, this is awesome information.
lakesidebrewer: Ted - I'm not sure that I understand what you understand me to mean - 100% Vienna malt would give a drier beer than one brewed with pilsener malt and a portion of caramel malt, because Vienna isn;t really sweet
gberon: You mentioned Dr. Lewis' research earlier. What do you think of some recent reports that full conversion takes place within 20 minutes of starting the mash?
Ted: sweet, no, but wouldn't a decoction leave it maltier?
lakesidebrewer: Vienna malt taste malty and a little bit biscuity, but it doesn't carry much resuidual sweetness of itself.
gberon: (Assuming Ted doesn't have a follow up)
Ted: I guess I misunderstood what was in the book
ale: gbron, my bad. Let Greg finish with Ted.
gberon: Gladly.
lakesidebrewer: Decoction mashing, on the other hand, can be used to increase the maltiness/caramel for a sweeter beer, by actually caramelizing some of the mash. This might result from hot sides of the kettle, or intentionally reducing part of the thin mash down to the
lakesidebrewer: point that it caramelizes. At our brewery we regularly caramelize wort in the kettle before filling it for boiling to pick up that delicate caramel flavor it gives, for some of our brands. end.
Ted: so, would you do a decoction with 100% Vienna malt in that style beer?
Ted: or would it make it to sweet?
lakesidebrewer: Uh, not end,., yes, a decoction SHOULD leave it maltier. You know, a decoction done with high-tech eqipment, steam jacketing, etc won't give as much maltiness as a direct-fired mash kettle. The caramelization through heat is a big part
lakesidebrewer: of why decoctions increase maltiness, and also sweetness. Too sweet? I've never encountered it.
Ted: ok, that helps a lot, thanks
gberon: OK to go?
lakesidebrewer: Regarding decoction mashing 100% Vienna malt, yeas. That said, if the Vienna malt was really well converted (chew it, if it is soft and totally friable it is well converted, if it is starchier or even glassy then it is less converted) I would hesitate to
lakesidebrewer: do a full decoction, because it would probably strip the head and body proteins down to fractions and end up thin tasting. If I wanted the flavor form the decoction, I would do just one rest, at about 140-144F, where the proteolytic enzymes
lakesidebrewer: are going to be breaking haze proteins down to head-size, and skip any lower temp rests. end.
ale: Greg, please scroll up to gbaron's question. He's next in line.
Ted: excellent, thanks
gberon: Sorry for interrupting the decoction discussion, it was great stuff. My question was:[/color] You mentioned Dr. Lewis' research earlier. What do you think of some recent reports that full conversion takes place within 20 minutes of starting the mash?
twocents: hi bryan, high
HighTest: Hello guys, just stopped by to see what's up...
twocents: we have mr noonan here for questions..
lakesidebrewer: Greg I don't doubt it a bit, in a perfect mash, where temperature and mash thickness are perfectly distributed, but in the real world things are rarely perfect, and I can prove by iodine testing that conversion continues for at least an hour in any mash
lakesidebrewer: that I have ever done. So, depends on circumstances, and I don;t know a single brewer that strikes his mash after 20 minutes.
Ted: LOL
gberon: Thanks, Greg.
Ted: I do!!
cj_in_j: Call Ted "Mr Perfect Mash"!
lakesidebrewer: Dr. LEwis is right about lab conditions. You know, some really great brews get brewed from mashes that are very temperature and thickness uneven, because a whole range of malt products results, instead of a more uniform conversion. Dr. Lewis' lab mash woul
Ted: no, I know a brewer that does it
lakesidebrewer: would likely be less complex than a mash done in a passive tun. end.
Ted: and his beers are NOT perfect
ale: Go Suds in Seattle
SudsInSeattle: as a beginning brewer only doing ales so far, can you provide some advice in trying a lager for the first time. Any common mistakes to avoid for the beginner? Thanks
lakesidebrewer: Ted, ask him to just drip some idoine on some wort that has been dripped from a coffee filter onto a porcelain or glass plate - I would be real surprised if he didn't still see a mahogany color after 20 minutes. And for a really full, sweet beer, ok, but h
lakesidebrewer: but for anything crisp, I would want to run a longer mash. end.
Ted: I will have to do that Greg
Ted: LOL
ale: Suds in Seattle is next.
lakesidebrewer: suds I think the most important thing with lagers is to know what temp the yeast really prefers, and get your primary fermentation to end within 5-7 days. Long slow primaries generally produce off-flavored lagers, Too high temps encourage solvent and fusel
lakesidebrewer: alcohol flavors that are inappropriate in anything but a kellerbier, so you want to know what temp to use. Yeast from the
the_stain: ?
Aeneas: ?
keepbrewing: any one here?
twocents: yes
lakesidebrewer: yeast labs has always been grown up at high temp - even up in the high 70s - so it usually does a poor job at traditional (below 52F) temps, and has to be fermented at 55-60F. Overall, that is not a problem, but you need to drop that temp down below 45 wit
keepbrewing: Is this the noonan chat room?
twocents: yes
gberon: lakesidebrewer = Greg Noonan
keepbrewing: ok
lakesidebrewer: within 3 or 4 days of the head dropping or you are going to get autolized flavors. Ask your shop keeper for temp advice on any yeastl. end.
SudsInSeattle: ok, great :)
ale: Go Stain
Blizzbrews: wow. excellent info
Ted: yeah, I think I need to read the book for the 5th time
the_stain: sort of a two-part question, both related to yeast life, particularly Ale yeasts. You mentioned autolysis in your last response; what is the maximum amount of time you think an ale should be left in primary before we have to worry about off flavors
the_stain: and second part, what is the maximum time you think harvested ale yeast (from primary) should be stored refrigerated?
lakesidebrewer: I am really flattered that my 20-year-old book still has revelance. Thanks. Regarding autolysis, it is largely temperature dependent. If the yeast is under beer that is below 45 and it is as cold, there won't be much autolysis for a couple of weeks, but
lakesidebrewer: if the beer is an ale and its at 72F, it is going to start autolyzing and giving the beer off flavor within a week. I know of beers left on the yeast for over a month without flavor impairment, but the beer is down near freezing temp. all that said, for h
the_stain: is that a week after primary is done, or a week from pitching?
lakesidebrewer: homebrewers, I would never recommend leaving a beer in primary for more than 10-12 days, and I would prefer to see it transferred within a week of pitching. Fast ferments generally produce better-tasting beer, and for ales, crashing the temp 10 F or so da
lakesidebrewer: after a 3-5 day ferment and then racking it within a day or two is just good practice. Part two:
lakesidebrewer: Regarding refrigerated yeast storage, I have successfully cultured up yeast that has been stored at 35F or thereabouts after 6 months, but the risk with any long storage is that mutant yeast in the slurry will handle starvation better than the main strain
lakesidebrewer: The best advice has always been to keep repitching the yeast you are using as soon as possible, and keeping it cold if that is more than a day or two between brews. The conventional wisdom is that slurry or slants stored at 30-35F will keep well enough
keepbrewing: I have ? I have a HERMS set up. Most people with HERMS constantly circulate the extract during mashing. I only use it for ramping temps. I do this because I read something in your book "Brewing Lager Beer" Something about lipids or fatty acids----
lakesidebrewer: for 3 months, and I wouldn't argue with that. end.
keepbrewing: Getting in the finished beer
ale: Sorry to interrupt. Greg, pleasr respond to my private message to you.
lakesidebrewer: Regarding mashing and movement of the mash, a few things are operative - there is always air in a mash, and whenever the hot mash is splashed around or compressed the danger of Hot Side Aeration is increased. Also,
ale: keepbrewing, you're out of line. Go Aeneas
Aeneas: thank you for coming once again Mr. Noonan, could you clarify the term kellerbier? And, the general idea that autolysis happens over a period of months as opposed to days is prevalent around here, what characteristics do you associate with autolysis?
keepbrewing: sorry
lakesidebrewer: a high-speed pump will actually break-down proteins from head-size to fractions, and beating up the husks always risks releasing more 'tannins'. The more you pump, the more risks that you take. I like your methodolgy - and I think that your beers would be
lakesidebrewer: better flavored than if you ran the pump constantly. end.
ale: Go Keepbrewing
keepbrewing: Thanks
lakesidebrewer: Aeneas Kellerbier is German lager produced in unsophisticated breweries without modern temperature control - they tend to be more yeast-aromatic than other lagers. Second
keepbrewing: I did take 2nd in a brew off once with your book in mind
keepbrewing: it was a lager
ale: BTW - my clock now reads 9:08 and Mr. Noonan is now "off the hook".
twocents: wtg keep
lakesidebrewer: autolysis starts happening as soon as any yeast depletes its glycogen reserves. How fast it does that is temperature dependent. A really cold conditioning/lagering will take months for flavor-significant autolysis to occur, but in an ale at above 65F I
lakesidebrewer: guarantee you will taste autolysis in the beer in less than a week after fermentation has ended. end.
lakesidebrewer: Thanks for having me. Good brewing to you all.
twocents: thanks..
Moke: Thanks for your time Greg.
gberon: Thanks, Greg. That was great!
Ted: thanks greg
BryanH: Yes, thanks very much
twocents: methinks I'm gonna have to get a second fermenator
hophead: Well, that's certainly a lot of information that my feeble mind is going to have to soak up. Thanks Greg.! it's been great. Hope to see you back again.
lakesidebrewer: Glad to have communicated with you all. Thanks again, and adios.
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