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> Chat with Charlie Talley, Founder of Five Star
post Dec 31 2005, 10:21 AM
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Joined: 16-March 02
From: Mooresville, NC
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This Sunday's Chat will feature guest Charlie Talley with 5 Star. Charlie began his carrier in 1968 with the Pennwalt Corporation as a Lab technician. By the end of his stay with Pennwalt he rose to Chief Developmental Chemist for the Use And Applications Laboratory. This laboratory was charged with the development of cleaning and sanitizing compounds for the food and dairy industry.

In 1990 he moved to Denver and stared Five Star. The focus of this company is to be a problem solver and develop cutting edge technology. Today he holds 7 patents on a variety of cleaning technologies. These include a compound to replace caustic soda (P.B.W.) as the main component in food processing cleaners. The new system is safe to handle and safe on all types of surfaces and it out preformed the typical harsh caustic based products. He has developed as safe and effective way of removing odors for draft beer line which is a major problem for the major beer companies. Mr. Talley developed Star San Sanitizer and 5.2 pH buffer.

ale: My clock now reads 8:00.
Aeneas: ?
ale: Go Blackbeard...
BlackBeerd: I'm just lurking tonight. thanks.
Spectre: ?
ale: Go CJ
cj_in_j: Charlie, you say that PBW is a "non-caustic caustic," or something to that effect. Can you explain a bit more about that?
twocents: hi ted
Ted: hi all
Charles_Talley: I developed PBW to replace caustic cleaners for Coors Brewing. Coors uses brass filters to sterilize their beer. When they cleaned with caustic 1,700 ppm were lost. Using PBW only only 1.9 ppm were removed from the brass.
twocents: not sure I understand that.
ale: followup?
twocents: parts per million of what?
twocents: and I don't understand the differential.
cj_in_j: So, it does as good a job on the dirt but doesn't harm the soft metals?
ale: ...or next question?
Charles_Talley: PBW is based on using oxygen and special wetting agents to get behind the soil and lift it off the surface. The best way to see this is to soak a teflon pan in PBW. Within four hours the teflon will be lifted off the alumium pan.
Connie: oh my
twocents: ok.. y
twocents: ty
ale: ...end?
Charles_Talley: This is a different way of cleaning, it doesn't require muscle it uses finase. That is why it is safe on soft medal.
Charles_Talley: metal
twocents: end for me.
Spectre: ?
ale: End, Charles?
Charles_Talley: Yes sorry
ale: Go Aeneas.
Aeneas: much is made of surfaces in the brewery, especially in regard to pitting, scratches and beerstone providing environment for undersirible microbes in the brewerey, can the homebrewer best address these issues? What is the best cleaning and sanitizing...
Aeneas: routine for the homebrewer?
crawfow: ?
Charles_Talley: You should always clean first, next if you have hard water where should be some type of acid rinse. The reason for the acid it helps to remove minerals and speeds up the rinse. the next is the sanitising step.
Charles_Talley: In comercial breweries I have them pasivate the surface this is a method using nitric acid to heal the surface. Since you do not have nitric acid white vinegar will do.
ale: Excellant question. Keep in mind that Mr. Talley devoloped his products for commercial applications.
BlackBeerd: ?
borny: (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/biggrin.gif)
Charles_Talley: The beer stone will adhere to the scratches and to differant types of metals in the same container. The only thing to get the stone out is an acid of some type.
cj_in_j: Does Star San work effectively in that context?
Charles_Talley: I do have a cleaning procedure on our web sight www.fivestarchemicals.com that you can look up.............
Connie: acid...like the vinegar you mentioned?
Ghost_of_Winter: ok..what have I missed? LOL
BlackBeerd: wouldn't acids etch the metal and open the grain
ale: ...end?
Charles_Talley: Yes it will. Keep in mind that it is an acid and it is very important to keep your equipment in a acid condition. the acid condition will keep bacteria at bay........
Charles_Talley: Yea vinegar any type will work.........
ale: Go Spectre...
Spectre: What is your opinion on the use of bleach for cleaning/sanitizing glass. (Bottles or carboys) Also, is bleach considered a "caustic" cleaner?
ale: ...Spectre has two questions.
cj_in_j: ?
Spectre: Sorry
Charles_Talley: Acid will open up soaf metals but for stainless steel it is the best thing for it.........
Charles_Talley: Bleach my first love. I us to make it. Yes it is very good of glass in fact every comercial brewery uses it. But not in the way you may think. It is use at 5 ppms at a pH of 5......
Charles_Talley: blach has 0.75% free caustic in it. It is needed to keep the chlorine in. The same caustic stops it from kill effictively. that is why you have to drop the pH to 5 to get good kill.......
BlackBeerd: ?
Spectre: So it works good like I thought?
Charles_Talley: When it comes to carboys I would use Star San the foaming action will get into places that bleach can't reach like the top ports....
ale: end?
Spectre: Thanks
ale: Go Crawfor
crawfow: Can 5.2 mash stabilizer be used in sparge water or is it designed solely for mashing? Also, How does using 5.2 mash stabilizer influence what I add to my water...say like if I want to burtonize my water or brew a london porter?
Charles_Talley: Yes bleach will only kill when the pH is below 7. since it will not get there on it's own you will have to add acid, but be carefull to much bleach and acid will make for a very bad day.......
Charles_Talley: It can be used in either place. It was developed for the Rock bottom brewery to keep the pH of there mash at a maximum extraction pH.....
crawfow: Will the water be suitable to sparge with or should I further acidify it?
Charles_Talley: I made 5.2 to replace the phosphoric acid normaly used to adjust the sparge water. The 5t.2 is what is called acid salts of phosphoric acid. They are infact the safe form of phosphoric acid..........
Charles_Talley: Once the 5.2 is used you should not have to acidify any further. Keep in mind that the darker malts will provid additional acid...
crawfow: thanks for the information end
ale: end?...
crawfow: end ? here
Charles_Talley: end?
ale: Go Blackbeard...BB has two questions....
BlackBeerd: What is the best way to clean a newly machined part, to get the cutting oils/fluids off?
Charles_Talley: Clean with a good alkaline cleaner like PBW use hot water and if possible soake it for 15 minutes. Rinse with water. Acid rinse using whit vinegar at a rate of one part to 32 parts of water. Let it dry in an acid state.......
BlackBeerd: Should I use a solvant first, or will PBW cut through a high sulfer cutting oil?
Charles_Talley: PBW should cut throug any cutting oil I know of. If you need to use a solvent wipe off as much as possible befor cleaning with PBW end
BlackBeerd: Thanks! end.
ale: Go CJ
cj_in_j: Plate chillers are becoming more and more popular among homebrewers, but the disadvantage of HB-sized plate chillers is that they can?t be disassembled. Do you have any recommendations keeping plate chillers clean beyond what?s mentioned on your site?
crawfow: ?
Charles_Talley: yes plate chillers have their own seperat clening procedure. When cleaning use PBW and set up a circulation loop if possible. If you can not set up a loop soake the plate in a tub using PBW at a concentration of one ounce per 4 gallons of water over night
cj_in_j: If I set up a loop, how long should I run the pump?
Charles_Talley: I have found from claning tap lins that simply pusing PBW through a line for 5 minuts cleans the entire line.
cj_in_j: So 5 min with a pump or overnight with a soak?
Charles_Talley: yes either one will work but I would use the pump first end
ale: Go Crawfow
cj_in_j: Thanks!
crawfow: Sorry, one more question about 5.2 stabilizer. How would you suggest I use 5.2 when brewing an American Pale Ale...in terms of both mash and sparge water additions? Is 5.2 ALL I should use?
cj_in_j: ?
cj_in_j: ?
crawfow: PS - thanks for your contribution to homebrewing...I started winning medals when I stopped using bleach and started using your cleaning and sanitizing products...
Charles_Talley: Yes. I did most of you work of a Pale Are mash. I found the best result i adding to the mash. I should state that my water is 8.5 and the simple addition brought it right in to 5.2. I have also teste water at pH's of 7 and 6 with the same results. end
crawfow: end ? here
ale: Go CJ. CJ has 2 questions.
cj_in_j: Is Acid 5 useful for homebrewers? Or is it overkill?
Charles_Talley: Your are very welcome I am very happy to help in any way I can.
Charles_Talley: No as I have stated stainless steel need acid and Acid 5 was made to heal stinless. If you have old ore very used carboys the Acid 5 will do wonders for them.
cj_in_j: So can homebrewers buy it in smaller packages, like Star San or Saniclean?
Charles_Talley: Yes I can make it available in 8 and 16 ounce bottles.
cj_in_j: Thanks -- now for me second question. How do you think PBW compares with Straight-A (or other competing products)?
Charles_Talley: Well PBW is a blended product it has 9 seperate ingredient and I have 5 patents on the types of ingredients and how they are blended. Straight A is a simple mixtre. That is the chemistry will they both work yes they will and do. PBW doesn't need elb grees
Charles_Talley: all it need is time. Straight A need work and it has a very hard time on burned on wort. end
cj_in_j: Thank you very much, Charles, for the great info. I only wish your products were available in Japan so I wouldn't have to ask Ale to send them to me!
Charles_Talley: Well that is why Ale is here to serve.
cj_in_j: lol lol
ale: Reminder - My clock now reads past 9:00, and Mr. Talley is now "off the hook". Any more questions?
twocents: I've had my fill of crashing... calling it a night...
twocents: nightesr all
cj_in_j: Ale -- I'll be in touch soon with my next order. (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/wink.gif)
cj_in_j: Charles -- Thanks again.
Ghost_of_Winter: ?
cj_in_j: Now i have to get mashing. See you all on the board.
Charles_Talley: Thanks all this was fun
ale: Charles - one last thing - How exactly does 5.2 work to buffer without affecting flavor?
Charles_Talley: 5.2 is a mixture of mono and disodium phosphare (food grade). These two salts are tastless in solution. they have been used in the food industry for years for the same purpose. As I was stating when phosphoric acid is used it combines with the minerals in
Charles_Talley: water form the same salts with either a calcim of manginusm componet to it.
ale: Got time for one more???
Charles_Talley: phosphates are used in most processed meats and in dairy products to buffer the pH. It was a natural porgression for me to use them. Our tast buds for all purposed don't see them or tast them. With all this they are also some of the stromgest buffers known
Charles_Talley: Sure go on
ale: What exactly makes Star San more effctive than, say, Iodophore?
Charles_Talley: That is a good one. I will make is short. Iodophore and chlorine will react with anything organic. That is why they kill. They however can't not penetrate the sugar coating that protect a bactria spore (the baby bacteria). so the parent dies but the
Charles_Talley: child lives. Star San doen't work that way it has a wetting agent (foam) that softens the cell wall of bacteria and the sugar coating. Once soften the phosphoric acid will rupture the wall kill both parnt and baby. It is also not affected by small amounts
Connie: we use Idophor and I have noticed that when I clean
Charles_Talley: of soil or organig materila so it will kill in situations wher the halogens will be used up by the organic material...
Charles_Talley: Yes you will see staining if there is organic material.
ale: Awesomw. Charlie, thank you for being our guest tonight. Great Chat!!!
Charles_Talley: You are very welcom I will do it anytime...
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