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> Group Brew: Cruz's Apple Butter Cyser - Fall 2006, Brew date: Weekend of October 14, 2006
Hop Mania
post Sep 19 2006, 09:09 PM
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yeah, i finally found it. Austin still refers to it as 3347 and Northern Brewer has it under the new number. Wyeast's website still lists it as 3347.
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BrewDude
post Sep 21 2006, 10:41 AM
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QUOTE(Matt the Mead Maker @ Sep 7 2006, 10:39 PM) *
Prime with one and a quarter cups of Lyles golden syrup.

A few questions:

1) Anyone know if this is available in the Denver area?
2) Ideas for a substitute? Honey? How much?
3) 1.25 cups? I've always seen .5 cups of honey for priming. 1.25 cups seems a bit excessive. Thoughts?

Yes, Matt, I know you're force carbonating, you lucky dog, but I don't have the funds to get kegging equipment right now, sadly. (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/sad.gif)
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Matt the Mead Ma...
post Sep 21 2006, 11:15 AM
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There's really nothing special about Lyles golden syrup - its just an easily fermentable form of sugar. You could substitute corn sugar in the same volume as you'd use to prime beer.

The real trick with natural carbonation here is going to be that you take very, very good care of the yeast with a SNA and occasionally swirling the must to get the yeast back in suspension as Cruz recommends. Eau de Vie is rated to 21% ABV and this recipe will definitely push the yeast towards that limit. So... take very good care of those little buggers so that they'll have enough juice left for carbonation at the end.

I didn't take good care of the yeast last time and my ABC stalled out around 19% ABV. I force-carb, so it wasn't a huge deal but I'm just putting that out there as an example.
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BrewDude
post Sep 21 2006, 11:33 AM
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QUOTE(Matt the Mead Maker @ Sep 21 2006, 10:15 AM) *
The real trick with natural carbonation here is going to be that you take very, very good care of the yeast with a SNA and occasionally swirling the must to get the yeast back in suspension as Cruz recommends. Eau de Vie is rated to 21% ABV and this recipe will definitely push the yeast towards that limit. So... take very good care of those little buggers so that they'll have enough juice left for carbonation at the end. I didn't take good care of the yeast last time and my ABC stalled out around 19% ABV.


I was thinking about this. Cruz indicates 2 monts in the primary and 3-4 months in the secondary. It'll be very interesting if the yeast last that long. Plus, if there's residual sugar left over after fermentation, will adding the priming sugar really do any good? This is kind of the same discussion as carbonating sweet mead. If the yeast have reached alcohol tolerance, would adding sugar even help?

Makes me want to pull out some savings funds and get a keg system after all.
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pods8
post Sep 21 2006, 11:52 AM
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QUOTE(pods8 @ Sep 18 2006, 07:27 PM) *
Hmmm, I just picked up 4 gal of pressed cider to make a cyser. I was quickly looking at this recipe and the fall bounty one from last fall, anyone have a shove for me in either direction of why I should brew one of these or the other? Not very familar with apple butter either. (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/sorry.gif)


Well without the search function running and alot of time on my part I was still clueless about this ABC till Cruz bumped the tread up. I have since read through the whole thing and it looks interesting. I am only around 1/4 through the fall cyser thread so I am still debating what to do. There is a chance I may knock out the fall cyser and then go snag more cider for the ABC, not sure though.

This post has been edited by pods8: Sep 21 2006, 11:52 AM
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Matt the Mead Ma...
post Sep 21 2006, 11:59 AM
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QUOTE(BrewDude @ Sep 21 2006, 11:33 AM) *
Plus, if there's residual sugar left over after fermentation, will adding the priming sugar really do any good? This is kind of the same discussion as carbonating sweet mead.

Actually, it's different from a mead in that (ideally) those residual sugars will come from the un-fermentable sugars in the DME. Malt is not 100% fermentable and that's why beer can be carbonated even though it's got residual sweetness. Honey, on the other hand is 100% fermentable.

QUOTE(BrewDude @ Sep 21 2006, 11:33 AM) *
If the yeast have reached alcohol tolerance, would adding sugar even help?

I've brought yeast beyond their theoretical max ABV pretty much every time I've made a melomel. If the yeast are truly maxed out or stuck though, yeah - that's the end of the road.
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hiddendragonet
post Sep 21 2006, 04:06 PM
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Ok, I've been thinking about a few things wrt this ABC. It sounds divine to me- IF you can get the FG down. Which seems to be a problem for many.

I was toying with the idea of mashing grains using cider instead of water. This would replace the DME. But then I would be compelled to boil it, and I don't want to boil the cider. :|

Having had a stuck ferment in the past, I am going to pay attention to pH. That is something I didn't hear people doing in the original ABC thread, and I bet it counts for a good 10 or even 20 points. I'm going to shoot for 4.3 or so intially and treat it with calcium carbonate to keep it above 4 until it's done.

Nutrient additions in stages is a given. In fact, in a conversation with Ken Schramm, he told me that he's taken to splitting the nutrients into 10 or more additions and adding them every 12 hours for the first 5 days. I might be tempted to double the nutrients and number of additions for this big a brew and add them every 24 hours for 20 days. These would be small additions split this way, but might provide "just in time" nutrients. I also like the idea of yeast ghost about 2/3 of the way through.

The one thing I lack is a quality oxygenation system. I don't know what I will do about this just yet. Maybe I'll get an aquarium air pump going. I would be inclined to aerate this every day for the first week or two, or up until about midpoint.

I figure if this finishes way too sweet I will add acid blend and fortify it with cognac. (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/smile.gif)


QUOTE(Matt the Mead Maker @ Sep 21 2006, 11:59 AM) *
Actually, it's different from a mead in that (ideally) those residual sugars will come from the un-fermentable sugars in the DME. Malt is not 100% fermentable and that's why beer can be carbonated even though it's got residual sweetness. Honey, on the other hand is 100% fermentable.
I've brought yeast beyond their theoretical max ABV pretty much every time I've made a melomel. If the yeast are truly maxed out or stuck though, yeah - that's the end of the road.

Matt, have you naturally carbonated the ABC with success? I too have my doubts on this one.
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Matt the Mead Ma...
post Sep 21 2006, 04:15 PM
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QUOTE(hiddendragonet @ Sep 21 2006, 04:06 PM) *
Having had a stuck ferment in the past, I am going to pay attention to pH. That is something I didn't hear people doing in the original ABC thread, and I bet it counts for a good 10 or even 20 points. I'm going to shoot for 4.3 or so intially and treat it with calcium carbonate to keep it above 4 until it's done.

That's a great point, hiddendragonet.

QUOTE(hiddendragonet @ Sep 21 2006, 04:06 PM) *
...I might be tempted to double the nutrients and number of additions for this big a brew and add them every 24 hours for 20 days. These would be small additions split this way, but might provide "just in time" nutrients. I also like the idea of yeast ghost about 2/3 of the way through.

I'm really glad you've shared that info here. Do you have a refractometer so that you can take daily gravity measurements? I'd love to compare that fermentation trend with the traditional SNA ala HighTest.

QUOTE(hiddendragonet @ Sep 21 2006, 04:06 PM) *
I figure if this finishes way too sweet I will add acid blend and fortify it with cognac. (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/smile.gif)
Matt, have you naturally carbonated the ABC with success? I too have my doubts on this one.

No - mine stalled out around 18-19% abv and I had to force carb. I also used acid blend to offset the sweetness. However, it's worth noting that I used 4 gallons of cider that had sorbates, I fermented 5 below the recommended temperature range, and I didn't do a SNA.
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Guest_Thunder_*
post Oct 1 2006, 05:45 PM
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I just wanted to say that after having lurked for a few days, I've decided to join in with this cyser. I've found everything except the yeast, and I will be special ordering that tomorrow. With luck, I will have this started by the next weekend.
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hiddendragonet
post Oct 2 2006, 08:38 AM
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Gang, I jumped the gun a little bit and made this yesterday.

Did not get a gravity reading on the straight cider, but now I wish I had.

I was able to find the muscovado sugar at the local Whole Foods, who also has many of the other sugars I've never tried- demarara, palm sugar, turbinado, etc. The muscovado was interesting- it's got a creaminess to it. Glad I didn't substitute brown sugar.

It took 1 1/2 gallons of cider to dissolve all of the honey, DME, and sugar. The apple butter did not dissolve very easily, but I mushed it apart with a spoon as best I could.

I went with 6 cloves, and about 5-6 sticks of ceylon cinnamon. I don't have cassia bark, and one stick of ceylon is about twice the amount of actual bark as cassia, so I reduced the amount somewhat thinking I could always add more.

I checked the pH. It's off the scale on the basic side, so I did no calcium carbonate additions. I will check again in 4 or 5 days to see if it's coming down, but I'm not anticipating needing to adjust for pH.

I am going to do daily nutrient additions and aerating for the first five days or so.

My OG came in at 1.134, which was lower than anticipated. Perhaps it's my cider? This may not take into account the apple butter, and it definitely does not take into account the raisins which will come later, but still. I figure that if this yeast really takes it down I will add some more honey to get it to where it should have been.

Volume was almost 7 gallons! I felt that the level was too high for my 7.5 gallon fermenter, so after pitching and stirring, I siphoned some into a one-gallon fermenter. After both ferments calm down I will add them back together.

Ferment is going nicely this morning.

Developing...

HD
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BrewDude
post Oct 2 2006, 08:52 AM
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QUOTE(hiddendragonet @ Oct 2 2006, 07:38 AM) *
Volume was almost 7 gallons!

This was what I was afraid of. I only have 6.5 gallon fermenters for this and no funds at the moment to go purchase another carboy. Hrm...
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pods8
post Oct 2 2006, 09:13 AM
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QUOTE(BrewDude @ Oct 2 2006, 08:52 AM) *
This was what I was afraid of. I only have 6.5 gallon fermenters for this and no funds at the moment to go purchase another carboy. Hrm...


Scale down the batch some? (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/eh.gif)

I'm pretty sure I'm on this band wagon. I picked up the sugar and have the yeast on order. Whats the deal with "white grapes" are these the golden grapes I see on the shelves or am I looking for something else? I am contemplating dropping the juice down to 4gal and doing a minimash make up 1 gallon of wort to cover the gal of juice and DME, this of interest to anyone else? I won't be brewing this up for a couple weeks. (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/smile.gif)
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Hokieborn
post Oct 2 2006, 09:14 AM
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QUOTE(hiddendragonet @ Oct 2 2006, 09:38 AM) *
Volume was almost 7 gallons! I felt that the level was too high for my 7.5 gallon fermenter, so after pitching and stirring, I siphoned some into a one-gallon fermenter. After both ferments calm down I will add them back together.


that could explain your low OG. I have a 7.5 bucket, but it will be tied up when I get to doing this (probably), I was thinking of using my 6.5 carboy. I think if I dissolve everything in about two gallons, I will just top up to 5.5 gallons. This will let me use the 6.5, and hopefully just be able to use the airlock (very close monitoring to switch to blow off if needed). I am having trouble finding the sugar and the yeast, I probably won't be able to start this the same weekend, but I will be watching this thread very closely to see how things progress.
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Matt the Mead Ma...
post Oct 2 2006, 10:12 AM
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QUOTE(Hokieborn @ Oct 2 2006, 09:14 AM) *
...I think if I dissolve everything in about two gallons, I will just top up to 5.5 gallons. This will let me use the 6.5, and hopefully just be able to use the airlock...

Just be aware that if you scale back the volume of the brew, the OG will go up since you haven't done much to reduce the fermentables. If you're dead set on using a 6.5 gallon fermenter, you may want to consider going up to 6 gallons of must and using foam control to prevent erruptions.

QUOTE(pods8 @ Oct 2 2006, 09:13 AM) *
...Whats the deal with "white grapes" are these the golden grapes I see on the shelves or am I looking for something else?...

I believe that's correct. Last time, I just spaced out and used regular raisins - that worked fine, too. (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/wink.gif)
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Hokieborn
post Oct 2 2006, 10:19 AM
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QUOTE(Matt the Mead Maker @ Oct 2 2006, 11:12 AM) *
Just be aware that if you scale back the volume of the brew, the OG will go up since you haven't done much to reduce the fermentables. If you're dead set on using a 6.5 gallon fermenter, you may want to consider going up to 6 gallons of must and using foam control to prevent erruptions.

You do make a good point. I can try to rearrange my brew schedule, and free up the bucket sooner, to use for this. I wouldn't have to worry as much then....hmm - decisions, decisions.
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