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> Saison, Complete kick ass recipe.
Gifty74
post Aug 24 2007, 08:18 PM
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QUOTE(rocdoc1 @ Aug 23 2007, 11:31 PM) *
I did my saison last weekend, OG 1.062, and within 2 days it was down to 1.042. On day 5 it was down all the way to 1.038, so it has definitely slowed down. Patience is a virtue with a saison.


Did you use WPL 565? If so man how this yeast acts differently. My OG was 1.072 and within 4 days it was down to 1.012. However, I was also up around 88F for fermentation temp.
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rocdoc1
post Aug 24 2007, 10:27 PM
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QUOTE(gifty74 @ Aug 24 2007, 07:18 PM) *
Did you use WPL 565? If so man how this yeast acts differently. My OG was 1.072 and within 4 days it was down to 1.012. However, I was also up around 88F for fermentation temp.


Yup, I used the 565 to make a big starter and stepped it up twice. My temps got as low as 80F and as high as 90F. Blew like hell the first 2 days and then petered out, just like it did last year. But the last one eventually(maybe 2 weeks)got down to 1.015, and I don't need this beer for another month so I'm in no hurry.

This post has been edited by rocdoc1: Aug 24 2007, 10:29 PM
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Gifty74
post Aug 24 2007, 11:36 PM
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QUOTE(rocdoc1 @ Aug 24 2007, 11:27 PM) *
Yup, I used the 565 to make a big starter and stepped it up twice. My temps got as low as 80F and as high as 90F. Blew like hell the first 2 days and then petered out, just like it did last year. But the last one eventually(maybe 2 weeks)got down to 1.015, and I don't need this beer for another month so I'm in no hurry.


I hear ya, not in a hurry is great. I wasn't really either, but it just took off. I also use a oxygenation stone and pump in some pure oxygen right after pitching. Did you oxygenate. Not really trying to troubleshoot, more interested in why they performed differently in our batches.
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rocdoc1
post Aug 25 2007, 11:17 AM
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QUOTE(gifty74 @ Aug 24 2007, 10:36 PM) *
I hear ya, not in a hurry is great. I wasn't really either, but it just took off. I also use a oxygenation stone and pump in some pure oxygen right after pitching. Did you oxygenate. Not really trying to troubleshoot, more interested in why they performed differently in our batches.

I oxygenated the 10 gallons in the conical, but not the 5 in the bucket. They both have acted identically, which makes me wonder about my oxygenation setup. I use the inline thing from B3 with a O2 stone and thermometer, but this time I saw I had a chance to see how much difference O2 would make on the same batch of beer.
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shmgeggie
post Aug 27 2007, 03:26 PM
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QUOTE(Big Harry Deehl @ Aug 13 2007, 08:57 PM) *
I thought I would try to do this again this year. I did 2 batches this summer in the Alabama July heat but did not do the 2 stage sac rest.

.........the verdict...................

Not nearly as dry. I mashed @152 (supposedly optimal for alpha and beta amalyse action) and the FG was 1.012 instead of 1.006. All the other variables were the same.

BOTTOM LINE.......

I believe the two stage rest (144-152) is a good idea for a dry beer.

Brew on!


I think this is inconclusive. If you did a one hour mash at 144 without the extra hour at 152 and ended up at 1.012 instead of 1.006, I'd be more inclined to believe you.
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Big Harry Deehl
post Aug 27 2007, 10:04 PM
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QUOTE(Big Harry Deehl @ Aug 14 2007, 09:02 AM) *
EH-

It certainly appears that it is important to have a long Beta rest to make a dry saison. I will try this beer with the single Beta Rest next time.


Smhmeggie, this is for you in case you didn't read it. What are the bases for your "inclinations". Are they from either bewing science or experience? You also might not have read thie quote below either (linked to on page 1).

Here is what Palmer has to say.....
QUOTE
Beta amylase works by hydrolyzing the straight chain bonds, but it can only work on "twig" ends of the chain, not the "root" end. It can only remove one (maltose) sugar unit at a time, so on amylose, it works sequentially. (A maltose unit is composed of two glucose units, by the way.) On an amylopectin, there are many ends available, and it can remove a lot of maltose very efficaciously (like a hedge trimmer). However, probably due to its size/structure, beta cannot get close to the branch joints. It will stop working about 3 glucoses away from a branch joint, leaving behind a "beta amylase limit dextrin."

Alpha amylase also works by hydrolyzing the straight chain bonds, but it can attack them randomly, much as you can with a pair of clippers. Alpha amylase is instrumental in breaking up large amylopectins into smaller amylopectins and amyloses, creating more ends for beta amylase to work on. Alpha is able to get within one glucose unit of a amylopectin branch and it leaves behind an "alpha amylase limit dextrin."


Am I missing something here? It seems like the 2 stage rest allows better access to the last sugars in the branch. First do the Bets rest. The beta works from the ends in and must stop 3 glucose's from the branch. Then you activate the Alpha which cuts loose just a little bit more for the beta which is never denatured. For the two stage rest to not work better, the added few cuts by the alpha would have to be useless. That just is counter intuative for my simple brain.

Anyone care to clarify?

This post has been edited by Big Harry Deehl: Aug 27 2007, 10:11 PM
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shmgeggie
post Aug 28 2007, 12:40 PM
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QUOTE(Big Harry Deehl @ Aug 27 2007, 08:04 PM) *
Smhmeggie, this is for you in case you didn't read it. What are the bases for your "inclinations". Are they from either bewing science or experience? You also might not have read thie quote below either (linked to on page 1).


Not based upon experience or any great scientific insight. But everything I've read says that the way to produce highly fermentable wort is just to mash at the low end. Both enzymes are working, even at low mash temps. So, after an hour, I'm thinking that all the conversion that can take place is already done -- neither alpha nor beta can find any more bonds they can break. Boosting the temp and mashing for another hour will not, to my understanding, allow the alpha amylase to break bonds that it couldn't at 144 since conversion is complete. So you're comparing mashing at 152 -vs- mashing at 144, which all the literature tells us will produce a less fermentable wort, and which is what you observed. You need to compare mashing at 144 for an hour -vs- mashing at 144 for an hour, then stepping up to 152 before you can really conclude that the 2nd step is necessary.
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rocdoc1
post Aug 28 2007, 03:36 PM
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QUOTE(gifty74 @ Aug 24 2007, 09:36 PM) *
I hear ya, not in a hurry is great. I wasn't really either, but it just took off. I also use a oxygenation stone and pump in some pure oxygen right after pitching. Did you oxygenate. Not really trying to troubleshoot, more interested in why they performed differently in our batches.

I went out of town for 5 days and my saison is down to 1.030 and bubbling steady through the blowoff hose so we're looking good right now.
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Jimmy James
post Aug 28 2007, 05:22 PM
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QUOTE(shmgeggie @ Aug 28 2007, 10:40 AM) *
Not based upon experience or any great scientific insight. But everything I've read says that the way to produce highly fermentable wort is just to mash at the low end. Both enzymes are working, even at low mash temps. So, after an hour, I'm thinking that all the conversion that can take place is already done -- neither alpha nor beta can find any more bonds they can break. Boosting the temp and mashing for another hour will not, to my understanding, allow the alpha amylase to break bonds that it couldn't at 144 since conversion is complete. So you're comparing mashing at 152 -vs- mashing at 144, which all the literature tells us will produce a less fermentable wort, and which is what you observed. You need to compare mashing at 144 for an hour -vs- mashing at 144 for an hour, then stepping up to 152 before you can really conclude that the 2nd step is necessary.


I think Harry is correct in that a beta rest followed by an alpha rest will yield a more fermentable wort. After an hour at a lower mash temp all of the beta conversion will be done that can be. However, when beta is active, alpha-amylase activity is suppressed, according to at least one scientific paper I found. This makes sense, because amylases are fairly good size enzymes. When they are bound to starches they will prevent other enzymes from binding. So, when beta is highly active it would bind up the oligosaccharides and alpha amylase activity would be suppressed. Compounding this further is the fact that barley malts are much richer in beta amylase than alpha (again, according to peer-reviewed science).

If one were to do a single-infusion mash then a lower temp would yield a more fementable wort than a single-infusion mash at a high temp based on the fact that at higher temps alpha becomes active and would start to interfere with beta amylase, which also starts to lose activity as temps increase towards the range where alpha is active. Beta is after all the enzyme that gives us our yeast glucose, so temps around 144 are recommended for more fermentable wort if you are only going to do a single infusion. I think there is plenty of scientific evidence supporting a 2-step infusion to get a wort that is even more fermentable, although how big the differences are could vary from very noticeable to subtle depending on the wort, system, etc.
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grafxdesin
post Sep 6 2007, 10:39 AM
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QUOTE(Big Harry Deehl @ Oct 3 2006, 08:19 PM) *
So simple and perfect. A must brew.

In the spirit of Saison du Pont, 100% pilsner

OG 1.056 FG 1.006

11 3/4 lbs Weyermans Pilsner

1.5 oz Mt. Hood @ 60 mins
1.5 oz Mt. Hood @ 20 mins
1 oz Mt Hood @ 5 mins
TOTAL 38 IBUS.

MASH
144 90 mins
152 another 1 hour

1/2 package seeds of Paradise @ 10 mins

WL Saison yeast 565 (and I added the dregs from a Chimay Grand Reserve ... blue bottle ...for giggles)

Ferment @ 78

TRUST ME! FABULOUS!

Ok so I plan on brewing this beer tomorrow! I forgot to order the grains of paradise and after doing some saison research, (Going back to BYO Dec 2006 article on saisons) They talk alot about brewing without any additional spices and letting the yeast do it? Has anyone done this with this recipe? what do you think?

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drewbage
post Sep 6 2007, 11:36 AM
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Not with this recipe no, but really if you hit the temps right on your ferment you won't need them. However if you're wanting to reproduce GoP, you can get close with coarsely cracked black pepper.
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erichonour
post Sep 6 2007, 11:41 AM
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QUOTE(drewbage @ Sep 6 2007, 11:36 AM) *
Not with this recipe no, but really if you hit the temps right on your ferment you won't need them.



I agree that if you ferment at the right temp, the yeast is going to add huge amounts of spiciness and flavor (I was astonished at how much). In my opinion, you don't really need any extra spice unless there's a specific flavor you want to add.

EH
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grafxdesin
post Sep 6 2007, 11:48 AM
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Thanks guys for the response, I think I might just let this one go without any spices! I also learned in tha article that these beers use to be put in champagne bottles. I just happen to have like 30 of them all cleaned and ready to go!!! So I will brew this, bottle it, and lay them down for a couple months before trying. Might even let some age for at least a year! Could be interesting.
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Big Harry Deehl
post Sep 6 2007, 10:46 PM
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Drew and Eric are right on. This summer's version was spiceless and it turned out great. I say go for it.

The yeast is indeed the star of the show, but don't underestimate the flavor contributions of the Weyermann's Pilsner Malt. WPM adds a unique flavor that blends especially well with this yeast.

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grafxdesin
post Sep 7 2007, 10:16 AM
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Ok one more questionabout this recipe. I am thnking of adding 1# of honey to just add a little character to this. I got the idea fomr the bjcp website? Anyone done this or have any comments?

If I do add honey I would just add it at flameout right?

Edit: What about or how would I add a little bit of sourness to this beer? Also read on the bjcp website and sounds good?

This post has been edited by grafxdesin: Sep 7 2007, 10:36 AM
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