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> The Legend of the Mythical Trub Cone, Can you capture a picture of this beast ?
calvey
post Oct 4 2006, 03:40 AM
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I was reading another thread about whirlpooling and the magical trub cone that is supposed to form at the bottom of the boil pot from the whirlpool action. Now I have tried this technique say, oh, about a thousand times with no success. I know others who are the same way. Yet, I always hear of this magical cone.

If anyone out there can make one, I challenge you to post a picture of this mythical creature in its native habitat along with an explanation of how you were able to capture it. To publicize your feat and surely make you the most famous brewer of all time, I will even publish your feat on my little website (brew365.com).

Failing pictures of this cone, shots of El Chupacabra, Bigfoot, Nessie, or a platypus will be accepted.
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stout_fan
post Oct 4 2006, 06:34 AM
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Oh it exists alright.
(IMG:http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/stout_fan/DuBrew/46-trub_cone.jpg)

and later on cone breakup.
(IMG:http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/stout_fan/DuBrew/47-end_of_drain.jpg)

Please note this BK hs a conical bottom.
It has been proposed that such geometry inhibits cone formation. Not so.
This was when I brewed on a friend's system.
I'm still waiting for the cone to pay a visit to my BK.

This post has been edited by stout_fan: Oct 4 2006, 06:36 AM
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MAZ
post Oct 4 2006, 06:37 AM
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Cool pics SF. How wide is your kettle?
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calvey
post Oct 4 2006, 10:43 AM
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Ahh ... it has a conical bottom. Now that I can understand. Is it conical like a standard cut-out keg or is it 'very' conical ? If that makes sense.
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JoePolvino
post Oct 4 2006, 11:04 AM
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I've had the same cone. At flameout, I stir pretty rapidly and just let it spin for about 5 mins. I'll start the flow thru the CFC pretty slow to give the cone more time to form. Usually by the time 4 gallons has come out, the peak is visible.

Try to avoid uneven stirring: the wobble will disrupt a clean cone.
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stout_fan
post Oct 4 2006, 12:36 PM
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QUOTE(JoePolvino @ Oct 4 2006, 12:04 PM) *
I've had the same cone. At flameout, I stir pretty rapidly and just let it spin for about 5 mins. I'll start the flow thru the CFC pretty slow to give the cone more time to form. Usually by the time 4 gallons has come out, the peak is visible.

Try to avoid uneven stirring: the wobble will disrupt a clean cone.
Joe, what's the details on your pickup and return?
thnx


QUOTE(MAZ @ Oct 4 2006, 07:37 AM) *
Cool pics SF. How wide is your kettle?
the pics are 8 feet.
My keggle is a standard 15"
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snowman
post Oct 4 2006, 12:56 PM
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Just about the time I was going to contact Myth Busters you had to post proof (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/devil.gif)
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Oldfart
post Oct 4 2006, 05:43 PM
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Ummm...why should the crud, which is denser than the wort, form a cone instead of being deposited in a ring against the inside of the kettle? As in a centrifuge. What physics explains the cone??

Maybe because at the center of the kettle, the crud kinda stays put because there is no centrifugal force acting right at the center of the kettle, and very little a short way out from the center??

Makes sense that even if crud is spun to the outside of a conical, it would settle due to gravity to the bottom of the cone.

Hmmmm...OF
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calvey
post Oct 4 2006, 07:06 PM
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Allright, I was going to do the writeup as promised, but I have more questions.

Is that just a regular keg/kettle ? What are all the little holes around the outside ?

Do you know how long the trub had to sit to form like that ?

Thanks
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Big Fuzz
post Oct 4 2006, 09:24 PM
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QUOTE(Oldfart @ Oct 4 2006, 03:43 PM) *
Ummm...why should the crud, which is denser than the wort, form a cone instead of being deposited in a ring against the inside of the kettle? As in a centrifuge. What physics explains the cone??

Maybe because at the center of the kettle, the crud kinda stays put because there is no centrifugal force acting right at the center of the kettle, and very little a short way out from the center??

Makes sense that even if crud is spun to the outside of a conical, it would settle due to gravity to the bottom of the cone.

Hmmmm...OF


Without getting into a bunch of fluid dynamics I can explain it like this: 1. The pressure of the wort along the outside is greater than the pressure in the center. The pressure along the outside has to be greater in order to balance out the centrifugal force created when rotating the wort.

2. There is friction between the water on the bottom of the kettle and the kettle itself - so the wort on the bottom is not moving as fast as the wort in the center & top. (Think of a vortex in a flask created by a stirbar - looks like a tornado - the bottom of the vortex is thinner due to this friction, otherwise a vortex would look like a cylinder.)

3. Because of the friction along the bottom, there isn't enough force to balance the pressure difference between the outside of the wort and the center, so the wort & trub migrate from the higher pressure outer wort toward the lower pressure center. The trub then naturally is deposited at the center, where the pressure is the lowest - it rises into a cone because after the wort has traveled to the center, it then travels back up to the top of the kettle and wort at the top travels down to the bottom to makeup for the wort that came to the surface (this is te secondary motion within the kettle).

Hope I explained that clearly enough to understand. This is sometimes called the teacup effect - for when you stir tea & tea leaves pile up in the center of the cup.
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Oldfart
post Oct 4 2006, 09:39 PM
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Very good explanation! (Why didn't I think of that?)

Thanks, OF
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ers811
post Oct 4 2006, 09:44 PM
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I too have wondered about the mythical cone. I use a stainless braid and just let it filter... but it would be fun to accomplish just once.

I do, however, make one mean trub pancake.
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DJ in KC
post Oct 4 2006, 09:47 PM
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QUOTE(Oldfart @ Oct 4 2006, 09:39 PM) *
Very good explanation! (Why didn't I think of that?)

Thanks, OF


Easy explaination #2, sugar water has more density than trub/hop debris. Just guessing of course tonight.

dj
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Oldfart
post Oct 4 2006, 10:00 PM
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QUOTE(DJ in KC @ Oct 4 2006, 10:47 PM) *
Easy explaination #2, sugar water has more density than trub/hop debris. Just guessing of course tonight.

dj

Then how come the crud doesn't float?? OF
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ers811
post Oct 4 2006, 11:12 PM
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QUOTE(Oldfart @ Oct 4 2006, 10:00 PM) *
Then how come the crud doesn't float?? OF


Well you see, it's very complicated with lots of numbers and equations and magic.

Here is a diagram of a brewery while performing the whirlpool. Hope this helps.

(IMG:http://www.itsmycompany.com/therootofthematter/images/escher_triangle.jpg)

Eric
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