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> Chat Transcripts - Guest: John Palmer, October 12 chat
post Oct 13 2003, 08:51 AM
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From: Mooresville, NC
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Sun Oct 12 20:03:08 2003 jjpalmer Hello Everyone, It is a real honor to be here!
Sun Oct 12 20:03:28 2003 cj_in_j It's our honor to have your here, believe me!
Sun Oct 12 20:03:30 2003 FrankNC Our honor sir, welcome.
Sun Oct 12 20:03:30 2003 walloon we are not worthy....
Sun Oct 12 20:03:43 2003 JDonovan jajajaja
Sun Oct 12 20:03:48 2003 ale CJ, Just waiting for John. I told him 'not to early'. We don't need a lot of things addressed before 8:00 and repeated later.
Sun Oct 12 20:04:00 2003 JDonovan he's in ale
Sun Oct 12 20:04:14 2003 ale Hello, John
Sun Oct 12 20:04:23 2003 bigslowrock ale is asleep at the wheel (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/tongue.gif)
Sun Oct 12 20:04:27 2003 bigslowrock j/k
Sun Oct 12 20:04:45 2003 jjpalmer This past weekend I was at the Northern Cal Homebrew Fest and was surprised and gratified at the response. I said the exact same things to Dave Miller when I met him in 1995.
Sun Oct 12 20:05:10 2003 jjpalmer We are all just brewers who like good brew and sharing the knowledge.
Sun Oct 12 20:05:46 2003 cj_in_j That's why we're here too!
Sun Oct 12 20:05:56 2003 JDonovan so we on the ? format tonight ale? Showing it's that time.
Sun Oct 12 20:06:00 2003 cj_in_j To share YOUR knowledge. (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/wink.gif)
Sun Oct 12 20:06:06 2003 ale Brewers, Mr. Palmer is now on board and it's now 8:00 by my watch.
Sun Oct 12 20:06:28 2003 bigslowrock ?
Sun Oct 12 20:06:41 2003 ale Please keep things orderly for the next hour.
Sun Oct 12 20:06:57 2003 ale Go - SlowRock
Sun Oct 12 20:07:13 2003 bigslowrock There has been alot of discussion recently about the removal of cold break from the fermentor, whats your thoughts on how important that it is
Sun Oct 12 20:07:29 2003 bigslowrock Especially with some of us going to CFC
Sun Oct 12 20:08:02 2003 jjpalmer Cold break is not as important as hotbreak for long term stability, but it is certainly a factor (more)
Sun Oct 12 20:09:05 2003 jjpalmer Cold break contains several fatty acids and tannins, and proteins, and is a strong factor for haze.
Sun Oct 12 20:10:05 2003 jjpalmer If you have a concern about haze stability and its ox/redox equilibrium with long term staling reactions, then removal is something to consider.
Sun Oct 12 20:10:27 2003 IrishJny ?
Sun Oct 12 20:10:32 2003 jjpalmer In summary, I consider it an option and something that I don't worry about much.
Sun Oct 12 20:10:47 2003 bigslowrock cool thanks
Sun Oct 12 20:10:49 2003 ale Go, Irish
Sun Oct 12 20:10:59 2003 IrishJny Along this line,
Sun Oct 12 20:11:19 2003 IrishJny I am brewing 20 G batches and use conical fermenters
Sun Oct 12 20:11:46 2003 IrishJny This means I think , I need to remove CB if I want to harvest yeast
Sun Oct 12 20:11:58 2003 jjpalmer Well that would be alot of CB...
Sun Oct 12 20:12:11 2003 IrishJny Or the 3rd Batch would sit on CB from 60 G's of beer
Sun Oct 12 20:12:26 2003 IrishJny How would you handle this?
Sun Oct 12 20:12:44 2003 jjpalmer Ahhh. well, lets think about this ...
Sun Oct 12 20:13:13 2003 IrishJny lol and Thank you for answering emails from ud all the time!
Sun Oct 12 20:13:41 2003 IrishJny us
Sun Oct 12 20:14:16 2003 jjpalmer I don't use conicals myself (yet) just missed one at the local raffle, but (Your're Welcome) isn't there a drawing off standard step at about the third day?
Sun Oct 12 20:14:47 2003 JDonovan you want to harvest the middle portion of the slurry Irish.
Sun Oct 12 20:14:47 2003 jjpalmer For trub removal I mean
Sun Oct 12 20:14:57 2003 IrishJny WQell, yes, but that would be for harvested yeast, along with the CB I am afraid
Sun Oct 12 20:15:33 2003 IrishJny I think yeast washing may be the only option
Sun Oct 12 20:15:52 2003 Cam ??
Sun Oct 12 20:16:04 2003 jjpalmer Cold break supplies necessary lipids and fatty acids for yeast health. It's the long term affect of having these compounds in the beer that is a detriment, not from yeast reaction but from other redox reactions
Sun Oct 12 20:17:11 2003 jjpalmer So yes, if you practice yeast washing, or pull the trup out the 3rd day befor you harvest yeast, then haveing CB in the harvexted yeast should not be an issue. (end)
Sun Oct 12 20:17:23 2003 Cam canex my ?? please.....sorry
Sun Oct 12 20:17:32 2003 IrishJny Thanks, John!
Sun Oct 12 20:17:48 2003 ale Go, Cam
Sun Oct 12 20:18:00 2003 Cam Sorry, already answered
Sun Oct 12 20:18:18 2003 jjpalmer Hoo I'm good!
Sun Oct 12 20:18:31 2003 Cam ?
Sun Oct 12 20:18:37 2003 ale Go, Cam
Sun Oct 12 20:18:49 2003 Cam I have a question on heat diffusion and scorching
Sun Oct 12 20:19:08 2003 jjpalmer 'kay...
Sun Oct 12 20:19:26 2003 Cam If I put some aluminum foil over the propane burner, will that help with distribution or be too adverse?
Sun Oct 12 20:19:52 2003 Cam Also, what would you recommend??
Sun Oct 12 20:20:00 2003 ale ?
Sun Oct 12 20:20:41 2003 jjpalmer Hmmm, couple considerations. Usually, you would want the aluminum to be in intimate contact with the pot bottom to distribute the heat that the burner gives off.
Sun Oct 12 20:21:06 2003 Cam Wrap the pot bottom?
Sun Oct 12 20:21:45 2003 jjpalmer But, the other way to do it is to put a hardware cloth type screen between the two to spread out the flame. Say bout an inch or 3 above the flame depending.
Sun Oct 12 20:22:21 2003 Cam OK, thank you.
Sun Oct 12 20:22:25 2003 walloon ?
Sun Oct 12 20:23:06 2003 jjpalmer Wrapping the botoom in foil is probably not going to work, because there is not enough thermal mass to carry the heat thru the foil to all parts of the pot, you need a .050 or more thick sheet to see results I think end.
Sun Oct 12 20:23:12 2003 ale While on the subject of aluminum, there's a lot of controversy about aluminum/emamel in the homebrewing world. Care to comment?
Sun Oct 12 20:23:40 2003 jjpalmer Okay, It depends on your water to a small extent.
Sun Oct 12 20:24:43 2003 jjpalmer If your water is acidic (below7) then there is a probability of getting a metal taste (no health worries AT ALL)
Sun Oct 12 20:25:22 2003 jjpalmer For most other waters, not an issue. You need to use alluminum a lot to build up the oxides that will render it inert to the wort.
Sun Oct 12 20:26:17 2003 jjpalmer Enamal is fine but it does not transfer heat well so you often get hot spots and scorching in big boils. It works well thour for the 3 gal boils on the stove though.
Sun Oct 12 20:26:31 2003 jjpalmer Oh. End.
Sun Oct 12 20:27:00 2003 ale Thanks. Go, Walloon
Sun Oct 12 20:27:03 2003 walloon A recent post concerned a professional brewer who said it was only necessary to mash for 15-20min.instead of 60-90min. Thoughts?
Sun Oct 12 20:27:10 2003 jjpalmer FYI, I am drinking an oatmeal stout right now.
Sun Oct 12 20:27:23 2003 jjpalmer DependS!
Sun Oct 12 20:27:37 2003 walloon elucidate please!
Sun Oct 12 20:27:48 2003 jjpalmer depends on your recipe, on your equipment, on lots of things...
Sun Oct 12 20:28:20 2003 jjpalmer Yes, conversion can happen and will happen in 15-20 minutes for most cases...
Sun Oct 12 20:29:31 2003 jjpalmer but, you need to ask yourself, what is the fermentable sugar profile after 15 minuts? Is it all long dextrins (long converted starches) or is the right fermentable mix that your recipe wants.
Sun Oct 12 20:29:59 2003 JDonovan excellent point
Sun Oct 12 20:30:23 2003 HD4Mark ?
Sun Oct 12 20:30:31 2003 jjpalmer Conversion will happen in 15, but then you are looking for Beta amylase to snip off lots of maltoses for the FG to be down where you wnat it. end?
Sun Oct 12 20:31:07 2003 ale Go HD4Mark
Sun Oct 12 20:31:55 2003 HD4Mark I have copper, brass and SS in my brewsystem and conical. I "pickled" the brass. Are there any problems?
Sun Oct 12 20:32:43 2003 cj_in_j ?
Sun Oct 12 20:33:04 2003 jjpalmer Oops, don't see my reply...
Sun Oct 12 20:34:32 2003 jjpalmer To repeat, pickled brass is fine (per my method??) but that is for lead removal only. Then you need to look at the galvanic corrosion potenitial but that is usually not a big deal on the homebrew level. by wch i mean intermittant use.
Sun Oct 12 20:35:15 2003 HD4Mark Used vinegar & peroxide
Sun Oct 12 20:35:17 2003 IrishJny I have had alot of green stuff grow on my brass, i replaced all of it with stainless
Sun Oct 12 20:35:25 2003 jjpalmer The galvanic potential of these metals in wort is pretty similar.
Sun Oct 12 20:36:14 2003 jjpalmer The green tends to be verdigris or cupric acetate and it is poisonous, in that it delivers a lot of copper to the body in a soluble form.
Sun Oct 12 20:36:53 2003 hophead ?
Sun Oct 12 20:36:58 2003 jjpalmer If you don't start turning green or experiencing nausea, weakness etc, then it is not an issue. Surprised it truned green though.
Sun Oct 12 20:37:08 2003 jjpalmer Okay?
Sun Oct 12 20:37:20 2003 HD4Mark Wow! Haven't seen any green stuff yet so cool thenks
Sun Oct 12 20:37:41 2003 HD4Mark or thanks
Sun Oct 12 20:37:54 2003 ale Go, CJ
Sun Oct 12 20:37:57 2003 cj_in_j My question is about cold pitching of yeast, where yeast is held at near 32F until right before pitching. Any thoughts on that?
Sun Oct 12 20:38:01 2003 jjpalmer For all metals related questions, don't hesitate to read Appendix B in the hardcopy. It is more complete than the online at the moment.
Sun Oct 12 20:38:31 2003 jjpalmer This I am totally unfamiliar with! Is this for brewing lagers?
Sun Oct 12 20:38:37 2003 IrishJny I will take a pic of the green stuff, and post it here. John, can you come back and comment on those pics?
Sun Oct 12 20:38:40 2003 cj_in_j No, any beers.
Sun Oct 12 20:38:53 2003 jjpalmer Green: Check.
Sun Oct 12 20:38:59 2003 IrishJny TY
Sun Oct 12 20:39:19 2003 jjpalmer CJ: is there a reason given/
Sun Oct 12 20:40:11 2003 jjpalmer CJ?
Sun Oct 12 20:40:16 2003 cj_in_j I picked up the idea from the AOB Forum, posted by Mitch Steele. The reason he gave is that the yeast quickly move from dormant to active stage -- beers start fermenting quickly...
Sun Oct 12 20:40:26 2003 cj_in_j and finish quicker.
Sun Oct 12 20:40:46 2003 jjpalmer Hmmmm, this does not necessarily make a lot of sense...
Sun Oct 12 20:40:58 2003 IrishJny Many of us can attest to this, John!
Sun Oct 12 20:42:19 2003 IrishJny It is the famous cj cold pitching technique, most of us have done it, with remarkable results
Sun Oct 12 20:42:27 2003 jjpalmer From what I have read, the yeast are using up their treholose reserves during any cold/nutrient poor period, so that it would seem to me right off the top of my head that they would potetially emerge weaker from the cold than from a reletively warmer state.
Sun Oct 12 20:42:53 2003 cj_in_j That's what others have said too, but it really does work.
Sun Oct 12 20:42:55 2003 jjpalmer I will have to research this topic in the journals and see what I see...end
Sun Oct 12 20:43:02 2003 Beershasta vacuole shock?
Sun Oct 12 20:43:13 2003 ale Go, Hophead
Sun Oct 12 20:43:17 2003 hophead Would you address autolysis..How long in the primary before you would become concerned? What would you consider the optimum time?
Sun Oct 12 20:43:46 2003 jjpalmer Preface: I have no data.
Sun Oct 12 20:44:19 2003 jjpalmer But, from various discussions etc. it would seem that even months are okay...
Sun Oct 12 20:44:56 2003 jjpalmer it seems to depend on the initial health of the yeast as well as the nutrients inthe wort, the oxygenation levels, etc.
Sun Oct 12 20:45:32 2003 jjpalmer I myself have never had an autolysed beer (at home) Don't htink I have tasted any at comps???
Sun Oct 12 20:46:12 2003 hophead Thanks
Sun Oct 12 20:46:14 2003 jjpalmer If you have a quality brew/ferment, then I would not worry about it even after 1 month in the primary.
Sun Oct 12 20:46:24 2003 jjpalmer end
Sun Oct 12 20:46:40 2003 cj_in_j ??
Sun Oct 12 20:46:48 2003 jjpalmer Oh, and autlysed yeast smells like B vitamin tabllets
Sun Oct 12 20:46:48 2003 ale Go, CJ
Sun Oct 12 20:47:01 2003 Cam To accent this, I've left a lager in primary for over 6 weeks without problems
Sun Oct 12 20:47:16 2003 cj_in_j Followup -Does temp matter in auto.lysis?
Sun Oct 12 20:47:55 2003 jjpalmer Yes, in that temperature changes the metabolic rate of the yeast...
Sun Oct 12 20:48:32 2003 Cam Man, you should write a book or something.....(Sorry, please don't boot me!)
Sun Oct 12 20:48:43 2003 bigslowrock lol
Sun Oct 12 20:49:13 2003 jjpalmer and so if you make them more active (party harder) they will run thru there resources faster and produce more byproducts that need to be assimulated later. They may be all pooped out at higher tempes
Sun Oct 12 20:49:34 2003 cj_in_j So, if ale is kept at fermentation temps, doesn't autolysis become a bigger concern? (I'm having trouble with the "1 month in primary" ideas, sorry)
Sun Oct 12 20:50:34 2003 jjpalmer Concern? yes, Risk? yes, Probability, No. depending on the health of the yeast and ferment
Sun Oct 12 20:50:43 2003 cj_in_j Okay, cool.
Sun Oct 12 20:51:08 2003 jjpalmer ok
Sun Oct 12 20:51:40 2003 jjpalmer Next?
Sun Oct 12 20:52:04 2003 ale Any more tech questions for John, or can we all have a beer together?
Sun Oct 12 20:52:18 2003 Beershasta ?
Sun Oct 12 20:52:19 2003 alekeep ?
Sun Oct 12 20:52:28 2003 ale Go, Shasta
Sun Oct 12 20:52:38 2003 hophead I'm having a rye
Sun Oct 12 20:53:09 2003 Beershasta Is it me or is there a new resurgence (spelling) in micros and craft beers in general.
Sun Oct 12 20:53:17 2003 ATHOBO i'm having cj's jpa
Sun Oct 12 20:53:49 2003 Beershasta nationaly I mean..end
Sun Oct 12 20:53:56 2003 jjpalmer I think that everyone is realizing that there is a bigger beer world out there than just Budmilloors,
Sun Oct 12 20:54:10 2003 IrishJny Heck, John Palmer taught me how to brew, I could ask him Q's for hours! Just, thank you for what I think is the best HB bookj availble. I refer to it often, and always will!
Sun Oct 12 20:54:45 2003 jjpalmer And as Americans become more educated there is more demand for more variety so Yes in answer toyour question
Sun Oct 12 20:55:03 2003 jjpalmer My two year old is assaulting my keyboard!!
Sun Oct 12 20:55:03 2003 ale Go, Alekeep
Sun Oct 12 20:55:10 2003 alekeep My system has a lot of SS valves but a good bit of brass in between plus a copper counterflow plumbed in. What is the best way to clean it? Ususally circulate PBW between vessels. Is this enough?
Sun Oct 12 20:55:42 2003 jjpalmer Yes....
Sun Oct 12 20:55:54 2003 alekeep thx
Sun Oct 12 20:56:14 2003 borny ?
Sun Oct 12 20:56:17 2003 jjpalmer But I am think that I remember a thread where PBW was turnign immersion chiller soaking solution blue..
Sun Oct 12 20:56:48 2003 bigslowrock ack
Sun Oct 12 20:57:10 2003 ale Cause?
Sun Oct 12 20:57:15 2003 Cam smurf pee
Sun Oct 12 20:57:19 2003 jjpalmer I would take a piece of each and place them in solution together to look for problems...
Sun Oct 12 20:57:51 2003 jjpalmer You know, like in a beaker where you can watch for problems over a two week period.
Sun Oct 12 20:57:55 2003 alekeep I occasionally take pieces apart for inspection but haven't noticed anything too strange.
Sun Oct 12 20:57:58 2003 IrishJny Ale, You have expertise in the area of heat exchanging device cleaning... extensive, for that matter....
Sun Oct 12 20:58:07 2003 jjpalmer But I dont Think it should be a problem
Sun Oct 12 20:58:20 2003 ATHOBO i hope it doesn't effect copper, i leave my CFC filled for weeks between brews
Sun Oct 12 20:58:50 2003 jjpalmer Ah! that is one thing I always recommend against. Dont leave chillers filled.
Sun Oct 12 20:59:11 2003 invalid ?
Sun Oct 12 20:59:27 2003 alekeep Thanks!
Sun Oct 12 20:59:28 2003 jjpalmer There is too much that can happen under locallized conditions inside a device that will throw conventional recommendation out the window.
Sun Oct 12 20:59:41 2003 JDonovan If you see green, it's important to deal with it.
Sun Oct 12 20:59:51 2003 ale Go Borney
Sun Oct 12 20:59:54 2003 borny this question may have be ask already, but what is the best way to "scrub" tough stains on SS?
Sun Oct 12 21:00:48 2003 jjpalmer Despite this months BYO, use a green scrubby or cellulose sponge and a Stainless Steel Cookware cleanser like BKF.
Sun Oct 12 21:01:13 2003 borny that article had me worried about scrubbing my pots
Sun Oct 12 21:01:22 2003 bigslowrock bkf?
Sun Oct 12 21:02:00 2003 HD4Mark bar keepers freind?
Sun Oct 12 21:02:10 2003 borny thanks
Sun Oct 12 21:02:22 2003 jjpalmer Yeah, I wish I knew who the Wizard was and what his particular circumstances are, because it seems there are several minor nits I could pick [Bar Keepers Friend Cleanser].
Sun Oct 12 21:02:31 2003 ale Go, Invalid
Sun Oct 12 21:02:48 2003 invalid sorry... forgot what i saw going to ask (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/tongue.gif)
Sun Oct 12 21:02:55 2003 invalid i'm still at wokr
Sun Oct 12 21:03:29 2003 IrishJny John, Bar keepers Friend, Is there a problem with it? Alot of folks swear by it!
Sun Oct 12 21:03:29 2003 invalid oh
Sun Oct 12 21:03:42 2003 invalid what was your favorite homebrew
Sun Oct 12 21:03:43 2003 ale John, What was your first experience with homebrewing?
Sun Oct 12 21:03:52 2003 jjpalmer The BYO Article was generally correct, but the whole Polishing bit was overkill, althought the basic premise is correct.
Sun Oct 12 21:04:09 2003 jjpalmer All three q's
Sun Oct 12 21:04:15 2003 ale Beer Lover first? Explorer first??
Sun Oct 12 21:04:22 2003 jjpalmer BKF is great.
Sun Oct 12 21:04:38 2003 IrishJny John, alot of us started to use bar keepers firend, I',m sorry but I must ask again, is there a problem?
Sun Oct 12 21:04:49 2003 jjpalmer Favoreit homebrew is Porter although my American Wheat Ale with Liberty is a close second
Sun Oct 12 21:04:54 2003 Cam I was going to ask you about the article, but I wasn't sure if you'd seen it...Thanks for answering my questions...You ARE good!!!
Sun Oct 12 21:05:15 2003 jjpalmer To Ales Q:
Sun Oct 12 21:05:44 2003 jjpalmer I was a beer lover first, and then as an engineer recently married in need of a hobby.... ;-)
Sun Oct 12 21:06:27 2003 jjpalmer I have a few more minutes before dinner if there are more questions
Sun Oct 12 21:06:40 2003 ale Same here (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/wink.gif)
Sun Oct 12 21:07:05 2003 IrishJny John, I rwally hate to be persistant, but is there a problem with "Bar Keepers Friend"?!
Sun Oct 12 21:07:33 2003 jjpalmer No there isn't. Why did you think there was?
Sun Oct 12 21:07:56 2003 hophead ?
Sun Oct 12 21:08:00 2003 IrishJny OK, Sorry I thought you had a reservation with it
Sun Oct 12 21:08:46 2003 ale For the record, it's after 9:00 and John is officially off the hook =) . I'd like to thank you, John, for participating tonight and answering our questions.
Sun Oct 12 21:09:04 2003 invalid thanks dood
Sun Oct 12 21:09:11 2003 jjpalmer Oh I see (looking back) No I meant that i had minor nits with BYO, and then tried answer the acronym query in the same line...
Sun Oct 12 21:09:12 2003 HD4Mark Good info John, thanks
Sun Oct 12 21:09:27 2003 Cam I'd like to thank you, also! You've been a great person to have on the chat
Sun Oct 12 21:09:39 2003 cj_in_j Thanks for stopping by!
Sun Oct 12 21:09:57 2003 walloon many thanks.
Sun Oct 12 21:10:02 2003 JDonovan Awesome chat John
Sun Oct 12 21:10:09 2003 jjpalmer My Pleasure Everyone! I like talking and will try to come by more often during work or something ;-)
Sun Oct 12 21:10:16 2003 IrishJny John, Thank YOU! You saved me many mistakes! Great of you to visit with us, and hope you would consider doing it again! Thanks! John White
Sun Oct 12 21:10:16 2003 FrankNC Thank you.
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