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> Roeselare Blend Options, Sour beer ideas/possible group brew
MtnBrewer
post Mar 1 2007, 05:48 PM
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QUOTE(doobahstop @ Mar 1 2007, 03:24 PM) *
The red would probobly be in the oak barrel if I can get it, and I would most likely use oak chips for the pale and dark.

I would recommend cubes, not chips.
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pods8
post Mar 5 2007, 03:16 PM
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I plan to snag some packs of this yeast when it comes out. I am not sure what game plan I'm on but you can tentatively put me in on a group brew.

Currently I have an on going lambic bucket on its second batch. I added oak cubes to the first batch that i boiled multiple times to take out alot of the tannins. When I bottled the first batch I left the dregs in there and just racked the next batch on top. I would likely do something similar here. However if I move in the near future and have the space I might have to swing by the local vinyards and see about a barrel... (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/devil.gif)
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caskconditioned
post Mar 5 2007, 06:30 PM
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Just finished reading Wild Brews - excellent book.

One interesting topic discussed is how oxygen affects the acidity of the beer. Higher levels of oxygen create more acidity in a shorter amount of time but with less flavor depth (complexity) than a beer exposed to less oxygen aged for longer. Specifically, the type of fermenter used (size, wood vs. plastic vs. stainless, etc) will dictate how much oxygen is allowed in during the aging process.

For example, a plastic bucket will allow over x300 times more oxygen than the large wood fermenters used at Rodenbach.

O2 cc/L/year

Rodenbach Large Wooden Tun: 0.53
Bucket: 220
Glass Carboy with stopper: 0.10
10 Gallon barrel: 23

I think I'm going to split the batch into a plastic bin and a carboy to see how they develop over time.

This post has been edited by caskconditioned: Mar 5 2007, 06:44 PM
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doobahstop
post Mar 6 2007, 11:24 AM
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I just ordered Wild Brews yesterday and cant wait to read it. The whole series is fantastic and has definitely improved my beers.

That is an interesting stat about the O2. I will be using a 50 gallon barrel for the red version of this brew. The plan on filling it is that brewing duties will be split between my buddy and I. We each are going to do about 30 gallons and then ferment primary in carboys and secondary in the barrel. What is left after the barrel is full is going to be aged in carboys. Perhaps half with oak cubes (as Mtn suggested) and half without. I am just going to leave the barrel in the basement. 18 months later, we should have something special. If it all works out well, the solera system is definitely going to be into effect.
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banjolawyer
post Mar 6 2007, 01:04 PM
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Here's some notes I typed a while back from Jeff Sparrow, WildBrews: Beer Beyond the Influence of Brewer's Yeast (2005)

QUOTE
Flanders Red beers do not spontaneously ferment; they mature in oak casks with many of the same microorganisms present in lambic, albeit with different results.

Both Flanders and lambic brewers blend beer to taste, a key step necessary to produce consistent results.

The red ales may be originally fermented with a pure strain of Saccharomyces yeast, or a mixed culture containing both yeast and bacteria. After the primary fermentation is complete, resident yeasts and bacteria acidify the beer in oak barrels over a period of up to three years.

The character of Flanders red ales develops during long aging in old, uncoated barrels whose resident microorganisms generally contribute more character than any derived from the actual wood. Wood is a porous environment, where yeast and bacteria with different oxygen requirements can thrive to meet their own specific needs. Blending beers of varying ages and colors balances the acidic character contributed by the microorganisms.

Flanders red brewers freely admit that there is less aged beer going into the final product, as there appears to be less demand for the acidic character in their beer.

Inoculated Flanders Red. The fermentation of a Flanders red does not occur as naturally as a lambic, making it easier to reproduce. Virtually identical microorganisms - Brettanomyces, Pediococcus and Saccharomyces cervisiae - with the addition of Lactobacillus and Acetobater to the "cocktail," ferment and acidify the wort.

If you choose a blend, simply cool the wort and pitch the mixed culture. If you choose not to use a blend, ferment your wort with a neutral Saccharomyces cerevisiae until it acheives the expected apparent attenuation, and pitch your homemade cocktail with the wort in a secondary fermentation vessel. Unlike lambic fermentation, rack the wort into a different vessel for the next stage of fermentation. Brettanomyces only plays a supporting role in the acidification of a Flanders red, so the wort need not be fermented on top of autolyzed yeast. For the same reason, the involved pitching schedule of an inoculated lambic is unnecessary.
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Yeasty Boy
post Mar 6 2007, 11:55 PM
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You can also use vinyl tubing with a stopper at the bottom. Fit that in your glass carboy, and the length of the tubing controls how much O2 is allowed. Maybe find the right sized marble, boil the end of the tubing and jam the marble in for a nice and tight fit, then insert in a drilled stopper, place in carboy - voila. You'de either need to add an airlock to the stopper or be sure you were done producing major gas.
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TomoMeier
post Mar 10 2007, 02:22 AM
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where are you guys finding the Roselare? My LHBS says Wyeast is not offering it.

Is it special request?
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shaggaroo
post Mar 10 2007, 02:44 PM
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Tomo I believe it is due out in April.
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doobahstop
post Mar 10 2007, 04:02 PM
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The latest I have heard from BOTW is that Wyeast will be shipping this yeast out the last week of March or so, so if you want it right away, I would put in an order for it ahead of time and pick it up upon arrival! I just got my copy of Wild Brews and have been paging through it. Its a good read so far and has for obvious reasons lit a fire under my ass for this project. Anyone interested in this group brew should definitely read this book. From the way it seems, the idea for these sorts of beers is not to clone a certain commercial product (which would be close to impossible) but rather to use traditional techniques to create new expressions of the artisan brewer's craft. A group brew of this sort I believe will be tremendously beneficial to all involved in that as we share our experiences and results, we can learn what has taken our brewing predessors generations to pick up on. I cant wait to get my hands on this yeast!
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pods8
post Mar 12 2007, 09:25 AM
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QUOTE(doobahstop @ Mar 10 2007, 04:02 PM) *
I just got my copy of Wild Brews and have been paging through it. Its a good read so far and has for obvious reasons lit a fire under my ass for this project. Anyone interested in this group brew should definitely read this book.


I picked up a copy this weekend, I'm 70 pages in and have a flight to OH tomorrow so I hope to advance that furthur. (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/wink.gif)
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doobahstop
post Mar 12 2007, 01:44 PM
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This will certainly be a daunting task. From the way the book makes it sound, these beers do not necessarily always come out right and usually require blending. Only so often does the beer come out right without blending. And as far as using a barrel goes, maintaining it is going to be a ob of its own. I hope I am not going to end up with 50 gallons of vingear....
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zombudis
post Mar 13 2007, 07:12 PM
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A friend here brought back two barrels from Kentucky several months ago. One club brewed a Scottish ale to go into it, and another club brewed an imp. stout. The Scottish brew went sour spontaneously, and is absolutely wonderful. I believe it is being entered into some comps as a Flanders Red. The Imp. Stout didn't go sour, and is super oaky, vanilla, etc.

Doobastop, I am curious- are you and just one other brewer planning to brew enough to fill up a barrel? That seems daunting, to say the least- don't you need to fill it up all at once?
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doobahstop
post Mar 14 2007, 12:06 PM
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Well, the plan is to begin fermentation in carboys and brew about 6 10 gallon batches and one those are brewed, put the beer into the barrel.

I am curious about your Scottish ale... Clearly this was a whiskey barrel. Was the oak pretty powerful in the end beer? Also, what sort of process did you go through to get the barrel ready to fill with beer?
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zombudis
post Mar 14 2007, 06:16 PM
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Yes the oak was pretty strong and more so in the imp. stout- I think the sour in the Scottish is masking some of the oak/vanilla. I didn't personally have anything to do with the barrel prep but my understanding is that they just kept a liter or two of whiskey in it until we filled it. Apparently the fumes on the way back from KY were so strong they had to drive back with the windows down (it was last summer). Good times, good times.
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pods8
post Mar 16 2007, 09:53 AM
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Well I finished up my reading. Its funny because I know alot more about the beers but as the adage goes realize how little I really know... Anyways I am thinking I'd rather just knock out a regular old flanders red with this yeast. Then down the road and based on tastings consider adding cherries, blending with a brown ale, etc. As of right now I'd likely only do a 5-10gal batch however if I manage to lock in on a house in the next month or so I might seriously consider doing a barrel.

My only comment on the blending is they do it to create more complexity and hopefully a somewhat consistant product. I don't think we should get discouraged they we might not have multiple batches to blend from. Yes we might not have as much acidic complexity but we'll definately have a good start on the acidic beer realm. If it is too acidic then one could always blend with a regular batch of beer such as a brown ale to add some sweetness. If such was done you'd need to drink it fast or pasturize the beer though.

But as I said above I think just getting the ball rolling with a general flanders red is where I think I'd like to start.
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