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> This probably sounds weird, but..., ... Do any of you make your own CO2?
3catsandadog
post Nov 13 2003, 11:07 AM
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OF, you might try using a a low-cracking pressure check valve leading to a 3 litre bottle or something. Once the CO2 comming out of solution overcomes the cracking pressure on the check valve it will start to fill the 3 litre bottle with CO2 under pressure. You can swap bottles as they fill so you don't build up too much pressure in the primary fermenter. Then, when you figure out your "scrubbing" method, you will have some pressure in teh bottles to force the CO2 through your system. Don't know about pressurizing it again at the end, sorry. Maybe you could make a crude "pump" by using a 2 litre bottle with a check valve leading into and out of it. When you squeezed it, you would compress the the CO2 in the bottle, forcing it past the "out" checkvalve into another holding container(another plastic bottle?). Some ideas anyway.....

Mike
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rstump
post Nov 13 2003, 11:28 AM
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I recall seeing several discussions in the past on various uses for dry ice.

At first blust, it dosen't sound too dificult to capture the co2 produced during the sublimation of Dry Ice and compress it into a tank. I have no idea what
filtering may be required or why anyone would realy want to...

Other than at times and at some locations, dry ice may be more available than
CO2 cylinders.

The local wally-world here sells dry ice but not CO2..
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Walt
post Nov 13 2003, 12:00 PM
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Oldfart... you crack me up man...
Haha!
How bout a way to make your own propane too?
Ill bet its not all burned when used, and you could maybe capture those particles somehow...
(IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/cool.gif)

Walt

This post has been edited by Walt: Nov 13 2003, 12:00 PM
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Oldfart
post Nov 13 2003, 12:01 PM
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3cats - Thanks for your thoughts! The simple-minded way to pump whatever CO2 results from this process is to admit city water to the CO2 container. If the city water pressure is 30 psi, for instance, I'll end up with 30 psi CO2 if I admit city water to the CO2 container while keeping it's outlet valve closed. If a pressure regulator is connected to the container outlet, then theoretically we are ready to start kegging. The only hard parts that I see are finding a large container that's good for 30 or 40 psi, and figuring out how to scrub the CO2. (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/smile.gif)
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Oldfart
post Nov 13 2003, 12:29 PM
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QUOTE(Walt @ Nov 13 2003, 12:00 PM)
Oldfart... you crack me up man...
Haha!
How bout  a way to make your own propane too?
Ill bet its not all burned when used, and you could maybe capture those particles somehow...
(IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/cool.gif)

Walt

Wow, Walt, I'll get right on that! My wife has this big barrel of compost, what I figure to do is valve that sucker into my burner after adapting it to methane... (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/hehe.gif)
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Trub Lou
post Nov 13 2003, 01:52 PM
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QUOTE
I'm an engineer, not a chemical guy,

Dude, you're not an engineer, you're a FRIGGIN' MAD SCIENTIST! (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/cool.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/biggrin.gif)
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Oldfart
post Nov 13 2003, 02:14 PM
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QUOTE(Trub Lou @ Nov 13 2003, 01:52 PM)
QUOTE
I'm an engineer, not a chemical guy,

Dude, you're not an engineer, you're a FRIGGIN' MAD SCIENTIST! (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/cool.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/biggrin.gif)

Yeh, Trub, but I try to "pass" as an engineer in everyday life.
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M12
post Nov 13 2003, 02:35 PM
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QUOTE(Oldfart @ Nov 13 2003, 11:01 AM)
The only hard parts that I see are finding a large container that's good for 30 or 40 psi, and figuring out how to scrub the CO2. (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/smile.gif)

How about a water heater? Reclaim the CO2 from carboy and put the tube in the top but down a foot or so. Do that so it cant mix as easily with the air it is purging out of the other opening. That will easily work for 30-40 psi.

They make hand pumps for high pressure airguns that could fill a bottle too. I dont know if they would go high enough to liquify the CO2 though.

M12
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hophead
post Nov 13 2003, 02:46 PM
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You guys need to get out more often.
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megavolt121
post Nov 13 2003, 04:19 PM
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QUOTE(Hop @ Nov 13 2003, 07:46 PM)
You guys need to get out more often.

LOL ROLF ROLF ROLF ROLF

Ok on a more serious note.. Let's say we've gone through the steps of capturing the c02 and we not need to compress it, a few methods come to mind.

For sake of simplicity(aka i dont wana think about this) lets say we have a Widget that attaches to a c02 bottle so we can fill it from our bag/ tank/whatever u captured in. Your next problem would be how to compress it. Water comes to mind but doesn't sound effective. Remember to push 30psi into a bottle doesn't mean you'll have 30 PSI inside the bottle. Effectively speaking you'd want to create some type of piston that attaches to our widget filled w/ the captured c02. You'd then use a hydraulc ball jack and compress the piston while pushing hte c02 into the collection bottle. This method comes from a do it yourself fill your own SCUBA tank idea. You'd have to repeat this process A LOT just to get your compressed c02 so its usable. I mean for example if we filled a 9oz bottle with C02 @ 30 PSI, I think we'd need 270 oz of C02 to begin with.

Of course my second method is to get another gadget called the car and drive to the local welding shop...
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Trub Lou
post Nov 13 2003, 04:44 PM
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QUOTE
I mean for example if we filled a 9oz bottle with C02 @ 30 PSI, I think we'd need 270 oz of C02 to begin with.

I always thought that CO2 containers were sold by the amount, in weight, of liquid CO2 they would hold.. i.e. isn't the 9oz rating in terms of weight, and not fluid oz?
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BlueDevil0206
post Nov 13 2003, 04:46 PM
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QUOTE(Trub Lou @ Nov 13 2003, 05:44 PM)
QUOTE
I mean for example if we filled a 9oz bottle with C02 @ 30 PSI, I think we'd need 270 oz of C02 to begin with.

I always thought that CO2 containers were sold by the amount, in weight, of liquid CO2 they would hold.. i.e. isn't the 9oz rating in terms of weight, and not fluid oz?

Well a CO2 tank is sold by the weight, but a 20oz coke bottle is 20oz of volume. So the quoted person was probably talking about volume and not force.
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slackjawedyokel
post Nov 13 2003, 05:20 PM
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How about just using a small air compressor? It wouldn't solve the filtering, but you can get pretty small ones. A company I worked for a few years back built some machines that used a lot of small air cylinders, to actuate the cylinders, they spec'd out a small, off the shelf air compressor. I think the entire unit had a footprint of 6 x 8 inches, and that was the high pressure one. If I remember correctly, it had a built in regulator, and would easily produce up to 60 psi. I think we had some really small ones that we would run at 30 psi. You still need some kind of "feed tube" to filter the gas and funnel it from the carboy, through a filter, and into the compressor. Maybe some small mod's to the intake area of the compressor could allow you to hardfit a hose up to it. That brings the next problem of the compressor creating a vaccum, or at least a lower pressure than the carboy. Is that a problem? How would a fermenting wort react if if were kept under vaccum? Would there be enough 02 dissolved for the yeast to work? Maybe some type of check valve would be useful here. Otherwise, you could use the bag method, and just put the compressor in the bag, run it till empty, then set it back up to refill. Grainger may have some small compressors in their book. If you are ready to start building this (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/wink.gif) and are interested, I'll give a call to the company I worked for, and see who their vender is.

For a holding tank, we tried fab'ing up a stainless tank, but cost became to much of an issue. What we ended up using was a piece of PVC pipe, and 2 PVC endcaps. We would start by drilling and tapping the center of the endcaps for a 1/2" NPT. Then we just bandsawed the pipe to about 6 inches, and glued the ends on. I don't know offhand what kind of psi PVC is rated for, but we never had a leak using this type of tank. With the ends tapped, we just hooked the compressor up to one end, and a manifold to all the cylinders to the other. You could just put a valve, hose, and a QD for your kegs instead. We ended up making some pretty big ones for experimental and prototype stuff, using 6" pipe that was about 10" long. Our "production" tanks used either 4" or 1.5". The 4 we would cut just long enough for it to be a spacer between the encaps, so it looked like 2 endcaps together, maybe 1/16" apart. I don't know how PVC would stand up to a sanitizer, and I imagine it would be a mess inside with cement oozing around and all kinds of places for nasties to hide. As long as cost isn't an issue, you could use the same design using stainless steel fittings. They are expensive. Or you could have someone fabricate a small tank for, maybe just weld 2 plates on the end of a piece of scrap SS tubing. Still spots for stuff to hide inside, but maybe less than the pvc.

geez, I think I might agree with Hop (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/blush.gif) -yokel
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Oldfart
post Nov 13 2003, 07:01 PM
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QUOTE(M12 @ Nov 13 2003, 02:35 PM)
QUOTE(Oldfart @ Nov 13 2003, 11:01 AM)
The only hard parts that I see are finding a large container that's good for 30 or 40 psi, and figuring out how to scrub the CO2. (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/smile.gif)

How about a water heater? Reclaim the CO2 from carboy and put the tube in the top but down a foot or so. Do that so it cant mix as easily with the air it is purging out of the other opening. That will easily work for 30-40 psi.

M12

M12, thats a perfect idea! Got a big one already in the basement, a 75 gallon jobber. Just have to get SWMBO off on a trip somewhere for a week, I can drain the tank and re-pipe it to the fermenter. Brilliant!

I calculate that at 70F, 75 gallons of CO2 weighs 1.1 lb. So in theory I can deliver 1.1 pounds of CO2 to your keg by displacing the CO2 in the hot water heater with city water at an assumed pressure of 30 psi. Is that enough CO2? Enough pressure? I don't know anything about kegging, how many oz or lbs at what pressure is nornally needed per five-gallon keg?

OK, gang, we seem to be making good progress here at the engineering end of things, but we still desperately need some chemist input about how to scrub the CO2 so that it doesn't foul the beer. Early on in this thread there was some talk about the nasty stuff that's mixed in with the CO2 from fermentation. We need more details about that, and particularly need advice about how to scrub the nasties out.

Mega, you mentioned some things like get a car, drive to local welding shop. I'm not sure what those words mean, let's keep the technical level of this discussion within the reach of us ordinary folks...

Trub, there is no stupider unit of measure than the fluid ounce. A fluid oz of water doesn't weigh an ounce, and anyway fluid ounces are actually measures of volume, at least you would think that they could call them fluid volumes. Agggh!
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M12
post Nov 13 2003, 07:29 PM
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Oldfart, I think the hard part is trying to figure out how much CO2 is in the water heater. If you try to pressure a keg and have regular air in it its ruined. Thats why I would take it from the initional storage tank to a compressed tank.

Now the hard part, you have to figure out how much gass is going from your beer to the tank and figure out when it is full. Then transfer that gas to a storage tank so the initional tank can refill. I would think that figuring a pea sized bubble of gas and multiplying could cause big errors due to the large numbers and estimation.

I think the gas needs to be stored because I dont think there would be enough gas given off to be able to pressureize the keg. (5 gallon batch wouldnt produce enough gas to dispence itself). If I ever try to find this out for sure, please shoot me. For now, I have to go, I have to plant some trees, I want to build a house when I retire...

M12
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