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> Going Electric - almost there...
dc2002
post Mar 1 2008, 05:14 PM
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Man...going electric is a lot of work...I think I'm about 1/3 of the way there or so...

Today I bought a 50A spa panel with a GFCI and installed it in the garage. I made room in my existing main panel and yanked the 50A GFCI breaker out of the spa panel and put it in the main panel. Then I ran some 6/3 into the garage to where I mounted the spa panel. Now I have 4 breaker locations to distribute from the spa panel that will be GFCI protected.

I plan to use one 30A 2 pole breaker for the element and 2 15A breakers to add a couple more outlets in my garage.

My control panel will plug into a 30A 240V outlet ran from the spa box...just trying to figure out how to run the wires behind walls and ceilings to minimize the conduit.

For the panel I will use an Auber PID with auto/manual setting, an SSR, a DPST switch for the 240V circuit to be able to kill all power to the element if necessary, and hopefully a 110V duplex outlet for the pump, radio, etc...still trying to figure the easiest way to have 110 in the control box...

Attached is a schematic of the panel thus far...still have to actually get an enclosure... (IMG:http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a125/kdcj2002/brew/brewbox.jpg)

Thanks to all the knowledgeable people on this board and especially Paul Muth(P-J)...There will be a pictoral to come...
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VolFan
post Mar 1 2008, 09:20 PM
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Im doing the same thing, only a bathroom remodel has moved it back on the priority list. I have 6/4 here and a 125A breaker box to mount on the rig itself. I plan on running (2) 5500W elements at the same time when heating strike water and also water from the boil kettle to pump over to the HLT so I can use the HERMS instantly.

I too have the Auber PID's but had to buy two for the reason I mentioned above. Picked up some 40A Crydom SSR's off Ebay. I plan having a sub panel with the 240 outlets and probably a couple 120 outlets as well.

I'll be glad to get back on this project.

Keep us posted on the progress.
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stangbat
post Mar 1 2008, 09:43 PM
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Did you run 10/3 with ground to the control box? If not, you can't run the 120v stuff and be in compliance with code.
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dc2002
post Mar 2 2008, 07:58 AM
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I have not quite figured how to power the control box yet. I may run two separate lines, one 240 line from the 30A breaker to an outlet near the brew area. Then run a 120 line from a 15A breaker since I have two more breaker locations in the spa box - it has a total of 4. Then I will have a 240V outlet and a 120V outlet near the brewery. Then I would plug in the control box with two separate cords.

I want to keep the 120V outlets in the panel for future contol of the outlet with another PID to control my pump or something down the road. I'd rather not hardwire the control box for modularity. Plus if/when I move it will be easier to deal with.

Would 10/3 allow me to have discreet 120 and 240 circuits drawing from two different breakers? I am thinking no. Two hots from the 30A breaker, one neutral, and ground. Right? If I want to run the 120V stuff from another breaker I would need 10/4 or two separate runs - whichever is cheaper.
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P-J
post Mar 2 2008, 08:21 AM
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Carl,
You are spot on. A 10/2 run for the 240 volt circuit and a seperate 14/2 (or 12/2 (or 3) if you already have the wire) run for the 120volts. Each circuit will be fed from a different breaker. The 240 volt circuit does not require a neutral unless you intend to run the pid on 120 v from the 240 volt breaker feed. That in not necessary IMHO.

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stangbat
post Mar 2 2008, 09:02 AM
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Like PJ said, you don't need 10/3 with ground if you are strictly going to run 240v. I was only mentioning it because if you run 10/2, you won't be able to run that 120v outlet on the panel off the 240V 30A GFCI breaker. It seems easier to run one wire from one breaker and be able to power your element and the 120v outlet in one shot.

That is what I did. I have a 50A GFCI. From it I run two 240v elements and my 120v pump and 120v stir motor for the HLT. I only have to plug in one cord for my rig and everything is powered, be it 240v or 120v, and it is all GFCI protected.

This post has been edited by stangbat: Mar 2 2008, 09:03 AM
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dc2002
post Mar 2 2008, 11:29 AM
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Stangbat - your schematic in one of the posts of your wiring really helped to clear it up in my head (the one where you included the grounds).

Since I dont have a "rig" per se I need everything to be sort of "plug and play" for ease of disassembly and storage.
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stangbat
post Mar 2 2008, 11:55 AM
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QUOTE(dc2002 @ Mar 2 2008, 10:29 AM) *
Stangbat - your schematic in one of the posts of your wiring really helped to clear it up in my head (the one where you included the grounds).

Since I dont have a "rig" per se I need everything to be sort of "plug and play" for ease of disassembly and storage.

Okay. I was just trying to keep you from backing yourself into a corner later. I am actually building a control box for a buddy that will work like you are describing. I.e. the controller for the elements will be strictly 240v. The other 120v stuff will plug into other outlets.
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stevehaun
post Mar 2 2008, 09:55 PM
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I did the same thing that Stangbat did. I have a 50 amp gfi breaker in my load center. I have 4-prong 50 amp, 240 vac outlet in my garage. My brewery has a single, huge power cord (rated for 50 amps). My control panel has two 30 amp, 240 vac outlets for my two 4500 watt elements and a 120 vac outlet for my pump. All three outlets are switched. The 240 vac outlets are controlled with a single PID and an SSR for each outlet.
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dc2002
post Mar 6 2008, 10:20 AM
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Ok,

Attached is the latest schematic...I have decided to just hard wire my cord from the control box to the plug for the heater element instead of having another plug and outlet in the control box itself...seemed a little redundant. I also added 2 indicator lamps to the control box - one for 120, one for 240 - just to have a little extra visual cue...

I placed a big order with Mouser for some "little" things...The next big step will be to get the elements and cut some holes in the keggles!!!
(IMG:http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a125/kdcj2002/brew/brewbox1-1.jpg)

This post has been edited by dc2002: Mar 6 2008, 10:23 AM
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stangbat
post Mar 6 2008, 03:34 PM
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So is your 20A SPST switch going to cut power to the PID and the 120v outlet? I don't think you want to do that.

I put a switch on the hot line to my PID so I can cut its power independently. You can probably also run it off straight 240 (most you can) and have it switched by your 30A DPST, or you can give it its own DPST. I bought some cheap small DPST rocker switches on eBay. I think it cost me $5 for 10 of them. I used both poles for a couple of things, and only one pole on some others.

This post has been edited by stangbat: Mar 6 2008, 03:34 PM
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dc2002
post Mar 6 2008, 03:51 PM
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I was trying to decide if I want to add another switch to turn on/off the PID indepentantly of the outlet. Its starting to sound like a good idea...Keeping the PID on 120 keeps more options on the table...

Thanks for the input...Its finally starting to come together!
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stangbat
post Mar 6 2008, 04:08 PM
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Since it is controlling the 240v stuff, I thought it made more sense to have it either independently switched, or also switched by the 240v kill switch. I don't really see how having the PID on 240 limits anything, other than it takes a different type of switch if you want want to control it independently.

Based on your first post, I'm assuming that what you have marked as "50A GFCI Load Center" really is a sub panel, and your neutral will terminate at the GFCI breaker in your main load center, which in turn terminates at the load center's neutral bus. I'm pretty sure you know and understand this based on my previous diagram that you mention. I only mention this because if not, the way you have neutral wired will not work with a GFCI breaker.

Edit: I'm also assuming that you know to ground everything and you just left of the ground wires for simplicity's sake. Of course double insulated stuff like the PID does not need a ground.

This post has been edited by stangbat: Mar 6 2008, 04:12 PM
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dc2002
post Mar 6 2008, 04:34 PM
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Yes, I acquired a 50A spa panel - swapped out the GFCI and put it in the main service for my house. I then ran 6/3 into the garage to the sub panel from the GFCI - wired properly - I want to ensure that all items powered from the sub panel both 120 and 240 stuff will be GFCI protected.

The sub panel has 4 1" breaker locations of which I will currently only use 3 - 2 for the 240V 30A breaker and 1 for the 120V stuff...

That is a good point on using the existing 240V switch to also power the PID - I didn't employ the KISS method...I'm sure the draw from the PID is negligable...

And, yes, grounding everything that needs grounding is assumed...
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dc2002
post Mar 8 2008, 03:46 PM
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Well, one step closer...I just hooked up all the wiring from the main panel to the spa box load center I installed in the garage. All is well. I hooked up the wires, doublechecked everything, and then turned on the 50A GFCI breaker in the main panel. Went to the load center in the garage and turned on the breakers there. Everything was powered up. Tested the GFCI a couple times and all indicators are go!

Gonna run some Romex from the spa panel right next to where I brew and install my 120V and 240V outlets to power the control panel...

Small victory but one step closer...

Pics to come...
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