Still Searching For the Perfect Bavarian Weissebier Options

[killroy]

My last attempt at Bavarian Weisse came up a little thin (to me) judges thought it didn't have enough ester/phenol. I did the "Ferulic acid rest" at 111 then brought by flame the mash up to saccrafacation temp. Fermented up to 65 with 3868.

So I was thinking about decocting. It occured to me that since the rest at 111 thinned my beer out why do the traditional decoction which includes a protien rest? Why not dough in at 152, go for an hour, then draw off the decoction to raise the temp up to mashout?

Then I opened my book "Radical Brewing" and Randy has already beat me to it.

"Instead of doing your decoction between protein and saccharification rests, you could do it at the completion of saccharification, and ust the temerature rise to bring the whole mash up to mahe-off temperature." (Radical Brewing)pg. 110

[alemonger]

My last attempt at Bavarian Weisse came up a little thin (to me) judges thought it didn't have enough ester/phenol. I did the "Ferulic acid rest" at 111 then brought by flame the mash up to saccrafacation temp. Fermented up to 65 with 3868.

So I was thinking about decocting. It occured to me that since the rest at 111 thinned my beer out why do the traditional decoction which includes a protien rest? Why not dough in at 152, go for an hour, then draw off the decoction to raise the temp up to mashout?

Then I opened my book "Radical Brewing" and Randy has already beat me to it.

"Instead of doing your decoction between protein and saccharification rests, you could do it at the completion of saccharification, and ust the temerature rise to bring the whole mash up to mahe-off temperature." (Radical Brewing)pg. 110

I had a similar experience with mine. I did a decoction between the acid rest and sach rest, with no protein rest other than the time it took to get up to 150. I also fermented at 63 to minimize bannana esters which I like to be on the muted side. The judges said my beer was too light (color) which I don't quite understand, and too thin but the biggest issue they had was lack of esters. In other words they were looking for banana bombs, which is not my perception of a true weizen.

[squiggy]

http://forum.northernbrewer.com/viewtopic.php?t=40751

[HerbalJoe]

Here's a real simple one for ya that turns out great. Just got a gold medal at the Enchanted Brewing Challenge in New Mexico:

http://www.beertools.com/html/recipe.php?view=7207

[Zulu]

Working for the little German company Siemens , with Head Quarters in Bavaria, I have been known to have a Weitzen or three...

A number of my German work colleagues have enjoyed my version over last few years , and just happened to brew mine today again.

I agree that many judges don't really know the true Weitzen, and banana bombs they are not.

I mash very long starting at 152 (Igloo Marine cooler as Tun and today it kept up @ 149 by time I finished), 90-120- minutes (today was 120 as I ran chores), too much trouble to do decoctions - so I add few oz of Melanoidin malt, I use 3868 and always ferment low, 62 is my aim and it does bring out great clove and banana flavors without them being overpowering.

5.5 Gallon -
5lb each Wheat and Pils Malt - plus the 3oz of Melanoidin.

Hersbruker Hops 1.3 oz at 60
0.8 at 5 minutes

was aiming for 1.049 , got 1.054 (I get high eff normally= 86%)

A true Weitzen is pale straw colored , and as milky as a Vanilla Milkshake.

Any judge telling you it is too light had his BJCP book on the wrong page (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/sarcasm.gif)

This post has been edited by Zulu: May 31 2008, 08:09 PM

[killroy]

The brew went O.K. I was shooting for 1.050, but got 1.047. Pretty rare to be that far off these days... I am looking for melanoidins so melanoidin malt would do the trick, but I have been wanting to do a decoction for a long time. Also melaoidin malt is not available at my LBS. We will see how this turns out. I took 1/3 and boiled it for 15 min.

Interestingly enough Geoff Larson (Owner Alaskan Brewing) judged my Weisse. He suggested "A lower sparge temp, as the DMS seeems to come from tannin extraction". What? Also higher fermentation temp to bring out more Bananna/Clove.

I thought it had a lot of clove. That ferulic acid rest at 111 worked really well.

The other certified judge thought it needed more phenol and fruity ester presence to meet style.

This is the recipe, pretty similar to those posted.


Batch Size: 18.00 gal
Boil Size: 22.00 gal
Boil Time: 90 min
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80.00
Taste Notes:

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
14.00 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 48.28 %
14.00 lb White Wheat Malt (2.4 SRM) Grain 48.28 %
1.00 lb Munich Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 3.45 %
1.50 oz Tradition [5.80 %] (60 min) Hops 10.8 IBU
0.50 oz Saaz [3.29 %] (15 min) Hops 0.5 IBU
Weihenstephan Weizen (Wyeast Labs #3068) Yeast-Wheat, 12.5m c/ml (3rd gen)

Measured Original Gravity: 1.047
Bitterness: 11.4 IBU
Est Color: 3.8 SRM

Currently at 61

[roscoe]

I just kegged a Bavarian Heffe done with WLP300. I was real careful to keep the internal temp of the fermenter at 62-63...which meant keeping the ambient of my fridge at 55 f. sometimes. At keeging the ester/phenol profile tasted perfect. I've never tasted a Bananna Bomb of the German Heffes I've tried. It's there in the background, but if I could pick a dominant flavor from the yeast it would be the clovish phenols.

[alemonger]

Working for the little German company Siemens , with Head Quarters in Bavaria,

What city were you located in? I'm pretty sure there was a Siemens facility in the town of Erlangen where I spent a summer and had my first weizen. Growing up in a small Georgia college town I was familiar with a few of the larger German lager imports, but had no idea what a wheat beer was until then.

[Zulu]

What city were you located in? I'm pretty sure there was a Siemens facility in the town of Erlangen where I spent a summer and had my first weizen. Growing up in a small Georgia college town I was familiar with a few of the larger German lager imports, but had no idea what a wheat beer was until then.

Yep... Medical Division in ERLANGEN.... many many trips there, and still get across once in a while these days.

1/3 of the town work for Siemens, 1/3 students at the University, the rest work to support the 1/3 Siemens people. (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/hehe.gif)

[killroy]

Looking for more discussion on decoction from people that have done them. I noticed a significant difference in the color (darker) and consistency of the decocted portion. People that do these swear by them as flavor enhancers. Any of you out there?

[killroy]

BUMP

[dagomike]

Interestingly enough Geoff Larson (Owner Alaskan Brewing) judged my Weisse. He suggested "A lower sparge temp, as the DMS seeems to come from tannin extraction". What? Also higher fermentation temp to bring out more Bananna/Clove.

Maybe you should email him and get clarification. That's not processing for me. I'm not sure how DMS would come from tannin extraction, and how he could tell that, let alone know what your sparge temp was.

[MikeC]

I did a single decoction on my last hefeweizen. It is still bottle conditioning.

I plan to do this exact recipe again, only without the decoction and compare.

I took a few photos of the decoction that I'll post up if I remmember when I get home. I was surprised at the amount of breakdown and darkening in the decocted grain. does it make a difference? I don't know, even the most controlled experiment will be difficult to perform and probably yield inconclusive results... and this argument will probably never be settled.

As far as the bannana / clove balance, I actually set my fridge on 66F and let 'er rip. Tastings thus far show very little banana and is quite clove favored, especially compared to real Weihenstephan on tap (I'm using 3068 yeast). However I like to use 65-70% wheat malt and have been doing a protein rest at 125F, which probably contributes to that spicy perception.

[DrGonzo]

Looking for more discussion on decoction from people that have done them. I noticed a significant difference in the color (darker) and consistency of the decocted portion. People that do these swear by them as flavor enhancers. Any of you out there?

Decoctions IMHO do add a bit of color(amber/brown) and flavor(bready) and are easy to do once you get used to them. The way I do my hefe nowadays is I use 2 decoctions... Basically I add all my grain(5lbs german wheat and 5lbs German pils) and aprox 7 gallons of 124F strike water to my 9 gallon Italian kettle. Mix everything up and let it stabilize at 111F, then let it rest for 15mins. I then pull 1.5 gallons of runoff and add that to my 10 gallon boil kettle along with a nice big scoop of grains from the Italian kettle and bring that(aprox 2 gallons) to a boil for 5 mins then carefully add that back to my Italian kettle and mix and apply direct heat until I raise the temp to 152F. Then I rest that for 40 mins... After 40 mins I pull 1.5 gallons and a scoop of grains and heat that to a boil for 15 mins then carefully add that back to my italian kettle and mix and apply direct heat until I raise the temp to 168F. I let that rest for 10 mins, give it a nice stir then vorlaugh until clear and collect my runnings. I add 2 gallon of 168F water during this process from a HLT into MT so I end up with a little under 7 gallons runnings in my boil kettle.

Once I achieve hot break .5 oz perle 45 mins later .5oz tet and teaspoon of yeast nutrient and my IC. 60 min flameout chill to 60F pitch yeast 1 quart off of my stir plate(WL hefe IV is my strain of choice) and into my ferment fridge set at 62F for 2 weeks.

Then from my carboy to A serving keg and into the kegerator and 4 days later GONZOWEIZEN is on tap!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/devil.gif)

[MicCullen]

Looking for more discussion on decoction from people that have done them. I noticed a significant difference in the color (darker) and consistency of the decocted portion. People that do these swear by them as flavor enhancers. Any of you out there?

The only decoctions I do are as a mashout step in making Pilsner, it does seem to add a slight bit of breadiness, and maybe some malliard flavor but I don't do it often enough to really know how much of a difference.