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> group winter brew planning thread, Now Fall Group Brew
MtnBrewer
post Jul 18 2008, 10:30 AM
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QUOTE(strangebrewer @ Jul 17 2008, 06:56 PM) *
By good you mean, it'll cause you to pass out in the bath tub good or are we talking awards here? (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/hehe.gif)

Considering that I am STILL working on that keg of Fall Bounty Cyser I'm going to give this one a run. I have a feeling the cinnamon will take plenty of time to mellow or go a little over the top on both the cinnamon and vanilla with intent to oak.

Well, I never said anything about good. (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/hehe.gif)

This was originally proposed as a winter group brew but it seems to be gaining traction quickly. Probably more of a fall group brew at this point unless you guys want to wait for spindrift to get back home.

I worked up a recipe and attached it below. If anybody spots any errors in it, please let me know. Here are some notes regarding the recipe:
  • Redstone uses Montrachet yeast, which apparently finishes at 12%. I'm specifying D-47 so the ABV is going to be a bit higher at 14%. Feel free to use Montrachet and adjust the recipe accordingly.
  • I know there are a lot of 71B fans here and I think that would be just fine too. The main reason I will use D-47 is because I have some that I need to use up.
  • I've designed the recipe for a FG of 1.012. Redstone describes their version as "sweet". If you guys feel that it needs to be sweeter than 1.012, let me know and I'll rework the recipe.
  • Redstone uses Madhava alfalfa and Ambrosia high-altitude wildflower honey. For those of you in Colorado, you can get these exact honeys at Whole Foods and most other grocery stores. For the rest of you, you'll have to find the best substitute. I'd suggest 2 parts of a neutral honey like clover and 1 part of something with more character, maybe orange blossom or tupelo if you can get it. Or if you have a good source for wildflower honey, use that. The reason I like the Ambrosia wildflower honey is that it's really made from wildflowers that grow here above the timberline.
  • Feel free to adjust the SNA schedule if you don't like mine or just use a monolithic nutrient addition if you prefer.
  • The vanilla and cinnamon additions are just guesses. The reality is that we're just going to have to go by feel and taste. So my plan was to start with 3 or 4 vanilla beans and cinnamon sticks and taste it every week or so until I get the flavor I'm looking for. I might go a little beyond what I think I need because those flavors will probably fade over time.
  • I was thinking of using "true" cinnamon rather than the cassia that we normally see in the store. If anybody has any experience with it, let me know.
  • You can get your spices where ever you like but if you don't know where to get good quality spices locally, I highly recommend World Spice. I have used their vanilla beans before and they were plump, oily and very aromatic. They have excellent quality spices.
Here's the recipe:
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ScottS
post Jul 18 2008, 10:46 AM
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I don't have a lot of experience with cinnamon, but what little I do have has taught me to be very cautious with it. You get a ton of tannin extraction in a fairly short time.

My initial thought was 3-4 sticks would be too much, but in a 5 gal batch, I'm not sure. I think my gut feeling would be fewer sticks for a longer time, simply because if you go nuts with tannins in the first week, you're going to pull the spices before you get much cinnamon flavor out.

But then, I was playing with a 1 gal batch, and I can't remember if I had one stick in there or two. (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/eh.gif)

I guess it comes down to - I don't have a specific recommendation, other than be careful with spices and tannins.

I got tannin extraction out of the vanilla beans too, but not as much. Some vegetative flavors though, most of which aged out.
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strangebrewer
post Jul 18 2008, 12:00 PM
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Mtn your recipe looks right in line with my own scribblings on this idea. I was kicking around splitting up my cinnamon additions between primary and secondary. Any guesses on the effects adding 1-2 sticks of cinnamon during the primary fermentation and then add more as needed during the secondary? Could the active yeast help take up some of the tannins? I like to use vanilla as a flavor enhancer/aroma element so I'll be tossing them into the secondary for sure.
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spindrift
post Jul 18 2008, 02:20 PM
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[quote name='MtnBrewer' date='Jul 18 2008, 09:30 AM' post='1159329']
This was originally proposed as a winter group brew but it seems to be gaining traction quickly. Probably more of a fall group brew at this point unless you guys want to wait for spindrift to get back home.




No reason to wait for me to get back fellas, if you go ahead with this as a fall brew, I can take advantage of your notes as you progress and then start mine when I get home. This sounds like a good recipe to me. (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/cheers.gif)
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armagh
post Jul 18 2008, 03:35 PM
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I may be looking at the wrong file, but it appears you have a stage 3 nutrient addition at 1.036 from a starting point of 1.116. That seems late in the process. I wouldn't add anything past 1.060 +/-, FWIW.
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Matt the Mead Ma...
post Jul 18 2008, 03:37 PM
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I'll be MIA the next few days but I like the direction this brew is going. (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/cheers.gif)
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MtnBrewer
post Jul 18 2008, 03:55 PM
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QUOTE(armagh @ Jul 18 2008, 02:35 PM) *
I may be looking at the wrong file, but it appears you have a stage 3 nutrient addition at 1.036 from a starting point of 1.116. That seems late in the process. I wouldn't add anything past 1.060 +/-, FWIW.

Yeah, that's why I added the note that you may not want to follow this nutrient schedule. I've used it before with D-47 and it works well but if you want to use something else, be my guest. The lag-1/3-2/3 schedule is what Oskaar uses a lot of times and that's where I got it from. Notice that there is no DAP in the later additions, only Fermaid-K (which does contain a little bit of DAP).

One problem I've had with SNA in the past is the yeast working considerably past their ABV tolerance. This schedule produces a more mellow fermentation that generates less heat and doesn't blow through the alcohol tolerance like HighTest's schedule does.
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armagh
post Jul 18 2008, 07:47 PM
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Got the part about no DAP in the later stages. Some yeast manufacturers seem to be leaning toward more front loading to avoid the potential for off-flavors stemming from late additions (past 50% sugar depletion) as in the Lalvin schedule adopted by HT. Some of the CA vintners I have had occasion to speak in the last few months don't add past 30%, others say nothing past 40% depletion. Well hell, you don't experiment, you don't learn.
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strangebrewer
post Jul 22 2008, 08:12 AM
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So we have a timeline on this? Aside from a little difference of personal opinion on the nutrient schedule it looks like we have it together. Pretty simple ingredient list too.

Not trying to push or pry but I feel like the last time this came up it died due to lethargy.
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MtnBrewer
post Jul 22 2008, 10:04 AM
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When does everybody want to get started? I can go at any time, myself. We got the go ahead to start whenever so the question is do we want to start now or wait until fall?
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armagh
post Jul 22 2008, 10:25 AM
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For selfish reasons, I prefer to wait until fall when I can maintain cooler temperatures. With mid-to high 90s for the next 6-8 weeks, the only thing I'm fermenting is saison. I can catch up later if a majority decide to go forward.
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MtnBrewer
post Jul 22 2008, 10:41 AM
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QUOTE(armagh @ Jul 22 2008, 09:25 AM) *
For selfish reasons, I prefer to wait until fall when I can maintain cooler temperatures. With mid-to high 90s for the next 6-8 weeks, the only thing I'm fermenting is saison. I can catch up later if a majority decide to go forward.

I was expecting that some people would feel this way and that's fine if it's the consensus. I'm not in any particular hurry but like strangebrewer, I want to make sure that this doesn't fall through the cracks.
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strangebrewer
post Jul 22 2008, 11:02 AM
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QUOTE(MtnBrewer @ Jul 22 2008, 11:41 AM) *
I was expecting that some people would feel this way and that's fine if it's the consensus. I'm not in any particular hurry but like strangebrewer, I want to make sure that this doesn't fall through the cracks.


I too have no issues waiting. There is nothing seasonal about the ingredient list and I've got plenty of winter warmers already going! So if it's good with everybody we back burner this until September/October time frame? I do want to make this one so between Mtn and myself I think we can bring this back from the dead when the time is right (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/smile.gif)
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mike911
post Jul 22 2008, 11:36 AM
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I tend to agree with Armagh. It's up in the 90s every day here, and probably will be for the next 2-3 months. I'm also out of honey right now, as well, and finances dictate that I should wait some.
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Marmot
post Jul 28 2008, 10:23 PM
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September and October are mostly likely out for me as I will be on the road. November is my time line. I have no problem with others starting earlier and me bringing up the rear.

Marmot
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