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> Chat Transcript - Guest: Chris White, President of White Labs (01/11/04)
kroyster
post Jan 13 2004, 09:10 PM
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[quote]This week's chat will feature guest Chris White, president of White Labs. Chris will be available on Sunday to discuss any questions concerning yeast and it's role in fermented beverages. Dr. White has a PHD in Biochemistry from UCD - San Diego and now teaches there. Please keep things orderly for Dr. White and follow the "?" protocol.[/quote]
Jan 11 19:54:12 2004 jjarmoc Ahh, the guest of honor arrives! welcome!
Jan 11 19:54:15 2004 cwhite hello
Jan 11 19:54:17 2004 Aeneas good evening Dr. White
Jan 11 19:54:39 2004 2Row Good evening, Sir
Jan 11 19:54:39 2004 cwhite glad to be here, not used to chats but I'll give it a try
Jan 11 19:55:07 2004 jjarmoc we don't bite
Jan 11 19:55:08 2004 ale We'll go easy on you. lol
Jan 11 19:55:11 2004 cj_in_j We're a friendly bunch -- looking forward to what you have to say.
Jan 11 19:55:24 2004 ted welcome Dr. White
Jan 11 19:55:48 2004 ted Tied!!
Jan 11 19:55:52 2004 cj_in_j overtime
Jan 11 19:55:58 2004 Aeneas EAGLES!
Jan 11 19:56:07 2004 cj_in_j And I have to go to work . . . soon.
Jan 11 19:56:09 2004 Aeneas ?
Jan 11 19:56:18 2004 ale We've got about 6 minutes to bantor around before the chat starts.
Jan 11 19:56:19 2004 ted I hate both teams!!!
Jan 11 19:56:31 2004 Aeneas OK, sorry
Jan 11 19:56:35 2004 cj_in_j ted -- *slap*
Jan 11 19:56:41 2004 ted but I like Favre
Jan 11 19:56:49 2004 cj_in_j okay, you're forgiven.
Jan 11 19:56:53 2004 cj_in_j a little
Jan 11 19:56:55 2004 ted CJ, *slap*
Jan 11 19:57:04 2004 M12 tie game, 5 seconds left
Jan 11 19:57:37 2004 ale Chris, you've already got two questions on deck.
Jan 11 19:57:55 2004 cwhite I'm ready whenever
Jan 11 19:58:12 2004 cj_in_j Eager beavers, ain't we!
Jan 11 19:58:13 2004 ale I hope that your typing fingers are in good shape!!! =)
Jan 11 19:58:39 2004 cj_in_j Ale, before we start, I have to say that you're getting a lot better too!
Jan 11 19:58:45 2004 cj_in_j typing, that is.
Jan 11 19:58:46 2004 ted ale knows about that
Jan 11 19:59:02 2004 ale tHmpkx!!
Jan 11 19:59:07 2004 ted lol
Jan 11 19:59:11 2004 cj_in_j lol
Jan 11 20:00:09 2004 ale Chris, I don't want to start too far ahead of time and you having to answer the same questions over and over.
Jan 11 20:00:32 2004 ale You'll think that we're boring lt;
Jan 11 20:00:41 2004 cwhite that's fine
Jan 11 20:00:44 2004 ted ale, always thinking!!!
Jan 11 20:01:45 2004 Beershasta 17/17 OT...I'm about to fall out!
Jan 11 20:01:57 2004 jjarmoc Irish!
Jan 11 20:02:06 2004 2Row *choochoo*
Jan 11 20:02:11 2004 cj_in_j Shasta -- I'm going nuts -- only Internet audio access, no TV!
Jan 11 20:02:16 2004 IrishJny *choochoo*
Jan 11 20:02:30 2004 Beershasta I need a Valium CJ!
Jan 11 20:02:37 2004 Brian CJ: Got your OJ?
Jan 11 20:02:47 2004 ale Brace yourself, Chris!! Irish is on board!!!
Jan 11 20:02:50 2004 cj_in_j I need a beer! But 10:00 am isn't the time. I have nothing right now!
Jan 11 20:03:08 2004 cj_in_j Time for a Diet Coke at least.
Jan 11 20:03:08 2004 Beershasta HA! Ale
Jan 11 20:03:26 2004 Beershasta Oh, come on CJ, it's 5:00 somewhere.
Jan 11 20:03:34 2004 ale Okay, My clock reads 8:00. The chat has started. Go C.J.
Jan 11 20:03:35 2004 Kent cj sometimes you have to consessions
Jan 11 20:03:48 2004 IrishJny Ale!!!!!!!!!!! I'm harmless! Thanks for coming, Mr. White (happens to be my last name as well! )
Jan 11 20:03:48 2004 Kent ?
Jan 11 20:03:55 2004 cj_in_j I have a working lunch today, at a brewpub. Don't need to start yet. (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/wink.gif)
Jan 11 20:04:09 2004 jjarmoc japanese brewpub? that must be an experience
Jan 11 20:04:18 2004 cj_in_j Actually this one isn't bad.
Jan 11 20:04:25 2004 cj_in_j Great food, adequate beer.
Jan 11 20:04:42 2004 MtnBrewer Hey guys...did I miss anything?
Jan 11 20:04:45 2004 ale C.J., You want to delay your question?
Jan 11 20:05:01 2004 cj_in_j ale -- I have about 15 min before I have to run. Your call.
Jan 11 20:05:07 2004 ale M-Brewer - no, not yet.
Jan 11 20:05:18 2004 ale Go, CJ
Jan 11 20:05:22 2004 GHawk Hello All.....
Jan 11 20:05:25 2004 cj_in_j Okay. I want to step up a starter from a tube to three liters. Is it better to make a 1-liter starter and then step up to 3 liters, or is it better to go directly to 3-liters? In other words, is it better to add fresh wort a little at a time or a lot at once?
Jan 11 20:06:17 2004 skotrat evening
Jan 11 20:06:29 2004 cwhite Step ups just depend on the volume. From one of our tubes, just go to 3 liters.
Jan 11 20:06:49 2004 cwhite If it was from 100ml or so of starter, then you would want to go to 3 liters...
Jan 11 20:07:47 2004 IrishJny ?
Jan 11 20:07:52 2004 ale end?
Jan 11 20:08:12 2004 cwhite yes, I'll write that next time
Jan 11 20:08:14 2004 cj_in_j If adding wort a little at a time, does the yeast multiply or just stay at the same population?
Jan 11 20:08:38 2004 skotrat Chris, were the basis of your original yeast strains also from the yeast culture kit company?
Jan 11 20:09:03 2004 cwhite It depends on the volume you give it. Going from one of our tubes to 1 liter, your not going to get much growth. To 3 liters, you will get about a doubling.
Jan 11 20:09:10 2004 cj_in_j Okay, thanks.
Jan 11 20:09:27 2004 cwhite By going to 5 gallons, your going to get 3-5 fold growth. end
Jan 11 20:09:37 2004 ale Go Aeneas
Jan 11 20:09:39 2004 cj_in_j Great, that's what I wanted to know.
Jan 11 20:09:43 2004 Aeneas Dr. White, could you comment on the reuse of yeast in successive batches, do yeast undergo selective pressure to become alcohol tollerant and thus capable of higher attenuation?
Jan 11 20:10:33 2004 cwhite Yeast will try to adapt to a rather hostile enviroment and survive. Alcohol tolerance is one factor they have to deal with.
Jan 11 20:11:36 2004 cwhite But your not going to see much change in a few batches. Over time, yeast will adapt, but that can take months of brewing (without the yeast changing in other ways). Or you can do work in the lab, which can speed things up but still takes some time. end
Jan 11 20:11:53 2004 ale Go Kent
Jan 11 20:11:55 2004 Aeneas thank you
Jan 11 20:12:02 2004 Kent I guess I will ask the obvious questoin .What is you position on cold pitching yeast?
Jan 11 20:13:00 2004 cwhite Cold pitching can be okay you just need a lot more yeast. You have to overcome the initial growth phase. It can be good for some beers.
Jan 11 20:13:28 2004 cwhite Lager, clean ales, some even do with hefeweizen to minimize fruitiness and maximize phenol/clove. end
Jan 11 20:13:37 2004 skotrat Hey J
Jan 11 20:13:42 2004 ale Go Irish
Jan 11 20:13:46 2004 Kent I have had very fast starts doing this,why?
Jan 11 20:13:48 2004 IrishJny Is it best to pitch at high krausen, or before or after? If a slurry has been saved, how should this be handled, when out of the fridge? A starter, and then when should it be pitched?
Jan 11 20:14:22 2004 cwhite should I answer Kents question?
Jan 11 20:14:27 2004 skotrat Has whitelabs ever thought of marketing sterile wort in say 10-14 ounce packages?
Jan 11 20:14:56 2004 ale Sorry Chris. Yes, Finsh Kent's question.
Jan 11 20:15:23 2004 cwhite I would expect the fast starts to be due to higher pitching amounts. Were you repitching?
Jan 11 20:15:39 2004 Kent Yes
Jan 11 20:16:15 2004 cwhite With repitching, that can be good because it is easy to use too much yeast, and this will keep the flavor in check.
Jan 11 20:17:00 2004 cwhite For saving slurry, it really depends on the condition of the yeast.
Jan 11 20:17:34 2004 cwhite If it is very healthy, it can be stored for a few months. However, it is always in best condition for about 48 hours.
Jan 11 20:17:50 2004 IrishJny Say it was harvested at the end of a one week primary.
Jan 11 20:18:02 2004 IrishJny and stored for 3 weeks
Jan 11 20:18:37 2004 cwhite The big killer is dissolved CO2. Whenever storing yeast, be sure an realease the pressure often. For 3 weeks, I would release the presure 6-8 times.
Jan 11 20:19:12 2004 HD4Mark ?
Jan 11 20:19:27 2004 IrishJny Ok, ty, then should it get a starter, or not? If so, when to pitch? High krausen, or at 24 hours?
Jan 11 20:19:31 2004 cwhite If over 2 weeks storage, I would take out 1 day prior to brewing and let warm to room temperature and feed with wort.
Jan 11 20:20:14 2004 IrishJny OK, then at high krausen after the temp change?
Jan 11 20:20:27 2004 cwhite Yes on the starter as above, and I prefer to give the yeat 2 days. That can be past high krausen, but the health of the yeast is better.
Jan 11 20:20:41 2004 IrishJny Thanks!
Jan 11 20:21:06 2004 ale Go Scotrat
Jan 11 20:21:27 2004 skotrat pass
Jan 11 20:21:41 2004 David_Chase ?
Jan 11 20:21:48 2004 ale Go HD$Mark
Jan 11 20:21:54 2004 HD4Mark I have used slurry to make a "restarter" then left it for a week or more with an airlock, that OK?
Jan 11 20:22:07 2004 Aeneas ?
Jan 11 20:22:18 2004 HD4Mark Like a mini new batch
Jan 11 20:22:34 2004 cwhite I'm still not sure what you mean by that.
Jan 11 20:23:34 2004 HD4Mark Well I just today harvested some slurry into a 1/2 gal jug and added a bottle of Malta, won't use it till next weekend
Jan 11 20:24:39 2004 cwhite That is okay. Just be aware that you can be stressing the yeast by giving it very little sugar and little to no oxygen. Stress can cause mutation, but if you don't do it a lot is should be okay.
Jan 11 20:25:17 2004 cwhite I think it is better just to refrigerate the yeast, and not add the Malta. end
Jan 11 20:25:33 2004 ale Go David_Chase
Jan 11 20:25:36 2004 David_Chase How critical is it to match the OG of yeast starters to the worts they'll be pitched in?
Jan 11 20:25:50 2004 HD4Mark Great, thanks Dr. W I only do this for one or two reuse
Jan 11 20:25:53 2004 Kent ?
Jan 11 20:26:16 2004 BeerMedic ?
Jan 11 20:26:23 2004 cwhite Not very important, but worth considering.
Jan 11 20:26:35 2004 cwhite I like 1.030 for most starters.
Jan 11 20:26:45 2004 David_Chase thank you
Jan 11 20:27:04 2004 cwhite If you do a high gravity beer, do a starter around 1.030, then go to 1.080 or close to your target for last step. end
Jan 11 20:27:17 2004 ale Go Aeneas
Jan 11 20:27:20 2004 Aeneas what is the standard viable yeast count in a fresh pitchable tube? When stored propperly, at 4 C, what rate of decilne do assume?
Jan 11 20:27:33 2004 kevin ?
Jan 11 20:28:17 2004 cwhite The yeast concentration is 1-2 billion per ml, each tube containing 35 ml.
Jan 11 20:28:37 2004 cwhite For most slurries, the yeast is at 50% viability after 30 days.
Jan 11 20:29:31 2004 cwhite But for our cultures, we can get them to be more than 50% after 4 months due to the way we culture the yeast (health of the slurry), and the nutrients we package the yeast with.
Jan 11 20:30:42 2004 cwhite Generally, we lose 5-10% viability every 30 days at 4C. end
Jan 11 20:30:50 2004 ale Go Kent
Jan 11 20:31:03 2004 Kent So what is the time threshold of a havested slurry for repitching without a starter?
Jan 11 20:31:54 2004 cwhite Best is 48 hours. Usually no problem under 2 weeks, just keep the pressure off. Over 2 weeks, I suggest making a starter. end
Jan 11 20:32:10 2004 HD4Mark ?
Jan 11 20:32:28 2004 ale Go BeerMedic
Jan 11 20:32:29 2004 Kent Thanks, that is my usual procedure
Jan 11 20:32:35 2004 BeerMedic some sources state that yeast propagation should be in increments of 10 times the original amount, while others state 5. What is the correct increment?
Jan 11 20:33:12 2004 cwhite Both are traditional brewing numbers. These numbers are much lower than most yeast culturing.
Jan 11 20:33:40 2004 cwhite But that shows the difference with brewers yeast. It does not grow as much as other strains, and needs a bit more care.
Jan 11 20:34:24 2004 cwhite 10 fold is fine, you actually get more yeast growth at 10 fold, but if you want to keep yeast growth down, use 5 fold. end
Jan 11 20:34:28 2004 ted ?
Jan 11 20:34:37 2004 ale Go Kevin
Jan 11 20:34:39 2004 BeerMedic thanks (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/smile.gif)
Jan 11 20:34:40 2004 kevin WLP099, super high gravity ale yeast, does this yeast tend to throw HIGH levels of phenols during fermentation (I know it can throw some)? I made a test mead with one and it went truly band-aid on me?
Jan 11 20:35:26 2004 cwhite Yes it can. It should be a little phenolic, but not band-aid.
Jan 11 20:35:49 2004 Cam ?
Jan 11 20:36:01 2004 kevin hmmm...thanks for the info
Jan 11 20:36:04 2004 cwhite It might have grown very qucikly, and produces more phenols. It won't do that in beer because it doesn't grow very well in malt. end
Jan 11 20:36:17 2004 ale Go HD4Mark
Jan 11 20:36:21 2004 kevin thanks chris I bet money it was the growth rate then
Jan 11 20:36:22 2004 HD4Mark Before Skotrat left he posted a ? about packets of sterile wort, I assume he was asking about is an instant starter. Good idea
Jan 11 20:37:05 2004 cwhite We've thoght about it, but never done it. That could be a good idea, it would just be a matter of packaging and shipping to keep cheap enough.
Jan 11 20:37:17 2004 cwhite We certainly produce enough sterile malt here to do that.
Jan 11 20:37:19 2004 cwhite end
Jan 11 20:37:24 2004 Aeneas ?
Jan 11 20:37:29 2004 kevin ?
Jan 11 20:37:31 2004 ale Go Ted
Jan 11 20:37:32 2004 ted What lager strains require a diacetyl rest? Or is it a good idea to do that step on all lager strains?
Jan 11 20:37:48 2004 HD4Mark Thanks
Jan 11 20:37:56 2004 cwhite Yes, all lager strains.
Jan 11 20:38:09 2004 cwhite Some will take 4-5 days rest, such as souther german lager
Jan 11 20:38:17 2004 ted Do all produce alot of diacetyl
Jan 11 20:38:42 2004 cwhite Others will only take 1-2 days, such as german lager and san fran lager.
Jan 11 20:38:52 2004 ted when is best to perform this step?
Jan 11 20:39:29 2004 Kent ?
Jan 11 20:39:33 2004 cwhite Even ale yeast will produce some diacetyl. So be sure and keep the beer on the yeast for at least 24 hours post terminal gravity. Here is my suggestion:
Jan 11 20:40:30 2004 cwhite In lager, once fermentation gets to ~1.020 (not terminal!), raise the temperature to 65F over a day or so. There will still be enough metabolic activity to do this.
Jan 11 20:40:55 2004 ted What temp?
Jan 11 20:40:56 2004 cwhite Let it finish the fermentation at that temperature, and rest for 3-5 days post terminal.
Jan 11 20:41:07 2004 ted Oh sorry
Jan 11 20:41:22 2004 ted Thank You
Jan 11 20:41:50 2004 cwhite The lower to cold lagering over 2 days. For ale, it is easy, just keep at fermetation temperature for 1-2 days post terminal. end
Jan 11 20:42:07 2004 ale Go Cam
Jan 11 20:42:09 2004 Cam Have you ever considered selling your yeast on slants or on petri dishes or is this somehow available to the homebrewer?
Jan 11 20:43:08 2004 cwhite We do sell a lot of slants to breweries, that is the way a lot of larger ones will buy yeast. But we don't think there will be enough homebrewers buying yeast on slants to do this.
Jan 11 20:43:25 2004 ted but could we?
Jan 11 20:43:27 2004 Cam Is there a way to buy it on slants?
Jan 11 20:43:30 2004 cwhite We could be wrong. It is still something we think about. end
Jan 11 20:43:47 2004 ale Go Aeneas
Jan 11 20:43:49 2004 Aeneas How did you aquire your initial yeast samples? How do you keep adding to your collection?
Jan 11 20:44:49 2004 cwhite First - the slants sell for about $85, but if you wanted them we could arrange that. For the intitial yeast samples:
Jan 11 20:45:10 2004 Cam HOLY COW!! I'll just keep making my own!
Jan 11 20:45:13 2004 ale ...and why the secrecy about the origin?
Jan 11 20:45:49 2004 cwhite Each one is different. Most have been bought from yeast banks in Europe. Some collected by me in person, and some sent to us.
Jan 11 20:46:13 2004 cwhite We still get a lot of cultures, but most are for private banking.
Jan 11 20:47:09 2004 cwhite We just got a large collection, so we are working through those strains. It takes serveral weeks for each strain to make its way through clean up and strain selection.
Jan 11 20:47:45 2004 cwhite Once we happy with the strain, we freeze them at -80C for long term storage. Secrecy:
Jan 11 20:48:36 2004 ted but why can't we know the origin, like ale asked?
Jan 11 20:48:51 2004 cwhite Even when buying them from Europe, we often are not told the origin. Breweries want to protect that information. Often we do know.
Jan 11 20:49:44 2004 cwhite We do try to give as much info as possible about origin, but we can't use the Brewies actual name for several reasons. end
Jan 11 20:49:53 2004 ale Thanks. Had to know...Sorry for jumping in out of turn...Go Kevin
Jan 11 20:49:58 2004 kevin what do you consider to be your most neutral yeasts as far as flavor and aroma profiles go (ale, lager, and other)?
Jan 11 20:50:00 2004 ted ahh
Jan 11 20:51:18 2004 cwhite California 001, San Francisco Lager 810 are the most nuetral. I'd say 320 American Hefe is neutral for that style, but still not really nuetral.
Jan 11 20:52:20 2004 cwhite The British strains have the most character for the ale strains. 002, 005, 004, and 007
Jan 11 20:53:22 2004 cwhite German Lager 830 is by far the biggest seller for lager yeast to the pros. It is a little nuetral, but still has a Eurpean flavor profile. 810 San Fran is the biggest lager seller to homebrewers. end
Jan 11 20:53:43 2004 kevin thanks muchly!
Jan 11 20:53:47 2004 ale Go Kent
Jan 11 20:53:52 2004 Kent So are you and Wyeast getting the same strains from the same source most of the time?
Jan 11 20:54:41 2004 cwhite I think so. But we never really know where they get them, so we can't say for sure what strains match up.
Jan 11 20:55:05 2004 cwhite There are some really well know strains, and some that are not as well known and are unique to us, I think.
Jan 11 20:55:22 2004 Kent Just asking because alot of times they are compared to each other by strain
Jan 11 20:55:43 2004 ale ?
Jan 11 20:56:15 2004 Kent Go ale
Jan 11 20:56:48 2004 Cam lol
Jan 11 20:57:14 2004 ale We often hear about Belgian strains being mmultiple strains. How accurate are the ones that we, as homebrewers, purchase??
Jan 11 20:57:37 2004 cwhite Often that is not true, just lore.
Jan 11 20:58:09 2004 cwhite We look at a lot of slurries, and some do turn out to be mixed. However, the mix is not always improtant.
Jan 11 20:58:22 2004 ale (Kent - Mr. White didn't yet give me the 'end' signal =) )
Jan 11 20:58:24 2004 cwhite The Belgian strains and slurries take a lot of work to figure that out.
Jan 11 20:58:51 2004 cwhite All of the Belgian strains we have are single strains. end
Jan 11 20:58:55 2004 Kent (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/smile.gif)
Jan 11 20:59:06 2004 ale ?
Jan 11 20:59:18 2004 Brian Go Ale
Jan 11 20:59:25 2004 Kent Go ale
Jan 11 20:59:31 2004 ale What's the skinny on LaChouffe?
Jan 11 21:00:29 2004 ale What do you have that you consider close?
Jan 11 21:00:44 2004 cwhite We have a single strain culture, Belgian Ale 550, that is pretty close. end
Jan 11 21:01:00 2004 Aeneas ?
Jan 11 21:01:13 2004 ale ?
Jan 11 21:01:56 2004 Brian ?
Jan 11 21:02:09 2004 cj_in_j Go Aeneas.
Jan 11 21:02:11 2004 Aeneas What quality control standards or techniques do you use to monitor genetic drift of a culture over time?
Jan 11 21:02:21 2004 ale Okay, I hate to put you on the spot - or drag you into a grudge match - but what's Stone Brewing using these days??? =)
Jan 11 21:02:49 2004 ted Go Ale!!!!!
Jan 11 21:03:09 2004 ted (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/smile.gif)
Jan 11 21:03:21 2004 Kent Follow protocol boys!
Jan 11 21:03:40 2004 ted (IMG:style_emoticons/brewboard/smile.gif)
Jan 11 21:04:27 2004 cwhite First Stone- it is a private strain they bank with us. It is an English origin strain (aren't they all!). Leaves nice sweetness while still giving good attenuation. The QC I'll answer below, that will be about it because I have to go soon.
Jan 11 21:04:45 2004 Heesman Greatings
Jan 11 21:04:58 2004 Heesman greetings (that is )
Jan 11 21:05:10 2004 ale Go Aeneas
Jan 11 21:05:38 2004 cwhite For QC, we look at both micro purity and perfomance. For the purity, we plate and use microscope for bacteria and wild yeast. The performace and genetic drift is more dificult.
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